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[00:01:22] UNKNOWN:
you Okay. Okay. . . you you . . Let me see, I can look it up. This is child number eight and nine, let me see. 10, day number nine is here. 18, 19, 20. Okay, that's fine. . .
[00:28:30] Speaker 00:
You are unmuted.
[00:28:34] Speaker 25:
Be seated.
[00:28:52] Speaker 10:
Morning, everyone.
[00:28:53] Speaker 03:
Good morning.
[00:28:53] Speaker 25:
All rise. Chair is entering.
[00:29:03] UNKNOWN:
You know.
[00:29:27] Speaker 25:
Hear ye, hear ye, hear ye. All princes have anything to do for the honorable justice to enter the court. Justice of the New York Superior Court, Ron here. Give your attendance to the shallow yard. I'd like to welcome Massachusetts and this honorable court. Please be seated. Please turn up your cell phones.
[00:29:46] Speaker 08:
Morning, jurors.
[00:29:47] Speaker 10:
Morning. I hope you had a nice weekend, everyone. Jurors, we'll start today with the four questions. Were you able to comply with my order that you not speak to anyone about this case?
[00:30:05] UNKNOWN:
Yes.
[00:30:05] Speaker 10:
Were you able to comply with my order that you not do any research about the case? Yes. Were you able to comply with my order that you not go on any social media and or access any news media?
[00:30:24] Speaker 12:
Yes.
[00:30:30] Speaker 10:
And you all still have open minds.
[00:30:32] Speaker 12:
Yes.
[00:30:39] Speaker 10:
Thank you, jurors. With that, we're ready to begin our today's work. All of the jurors have responded in the affirmative. We'll have the witness back on the stand. Good morning. Dr. Atkinson, you understand you're still under oath?
[00:31:11] Speaker 22:
Yes.
[00:31:13] Speaker 10:
Proceed.
[00:31:14] Speaker 22:
Thank you, Your Honor. Your Honor may approach.
[00:31:18] Speaker 10:
You may.
[00:31:27] Speaker 24:
Doctor, do you recognize this image? Yes. Is that an image of the bag of rugs that you had the opportunity to examine at OCME?
[00:31:35] Speaker 20:
Yes, it is.
[00:31:35] Speaker 24:
The next image.
[00:31:49] Speaker 10:
P 1 0 9 0 0 0.
[00:31:51] Speaker 26:
Is that what you said?
[00:31:54] Speaker 10:
0 0 0 1. 0 0 0 1 is now in evidences exhibit 181.
[00:32:21] Speaker 00:
Thank you.
[00:32:24] Speaker 10:
And jurors, we have change in staff over the weekend and for the rest of the trial, Ms. Blankenship is going to be the reporter. I know you can only see the back of the person, but welcome.
[00:32:43] Speaker 24:
Pardon me? You sure can. Ms. Kinley, can we have file number P1090001? So, doctor, directing attention to the image on the screen, what is the significance of the 230493 at the bottom?
[00:33:03] Speaker 20:
That is the OCME case number. So, 23 was the year, 2023, and then that was the number of cases we'd had up to that point.
[00:33:14] Speaker 24:
And so, doctor, your numbers, are they the same as the crime lab numbers? No.
[00:33:21] UNKNOWN:
Okay.
[00:33:22] Speaker 24:
And for the record, this is file number PC110198. Doctor, directing your attention to the screen for exhibit 180, what were the observations you were able to make of this piece of carpet?
[00:33:47] Speaker 20:
This piece of carpet has a large area of red-brown stain on it, and in the middle of this stain was an approximately one quarter inch long, what looked to be a blood clot.
[00:34:03] Speaker 24:
Could you take that down, Ms. Gilman? Thank you. So, doctor, what is a blood clot?
[00:34:09] Speaker 20:
A blood clot is just blood that has solidified or clotted.
[00:34:13] Speaker 24:
And how were you able to make the determination that looked like a blood clot? What was it that about it that gave you that indication?
[00:34:22] Speaker 20:
It's the correct color, shape, consistency of a blood clot. I've seen thousands of them.
[00:34:30] Speaker 22:
Dr. May I approach? You may.
[00:34:37] Speaker 24:
Thank you. Doctor, do you recognize this image?
[00:34:39] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[00:34:40] Speaker 24:
Is that a fair and accurate depiction of a close-up of the blood clot from that section of carpet?
[00:34:43] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[00:34:45] Speaker 24:
The Commonwealth would seek to have this marked as the next exhibit, Your Honor, which is PC110197.
[00:34:50] Speaker 10:
No objections. Photo PC110197 is now in evidence as exhibit 182. Okay. Thank you.
[00:35:06] Speaker 24:
Your Honor, may the Commonwealth publish 182?
[00:35:08] Speaker 10:
You may.
[00:35:09] Speaker 24:
Thank you. Ms. Gilman, could we have PC110197? So, doctor, that's the close-up of the blood clot that you identified? Yes. What did you do with that blood clot?
[00:35:24] Speaker 20:
I saved that blood clot in a jar for possible future DNA analysis.
[00:35:30] Speaker 24:
Mr. Gimlin, if you could take that down. How do you save it in a jar, sir?
[00:35:35] Speaker 20:
You place it into a plastic jar and then we, I believe, freeze that jar afterward.
[00:35:47] Speaker 26:
Dr.
[00:35:52] Speaker 24:
I'm showing you too many images at this point in time. Are those fair and accurate depictions of the next section of carpet you had the opportunity to analyze or look at that day at OCME?
[00:36:10] Speaker 20:
Yes, this was the largest piece.
[00:36:13] Speaker 24:
Your honor, the Commonwealth would seek to enter the next two photographs as exhibits.
[00:36:19] Speaker 10:
What are the file numbers? Yes.
[00:36:22] Speaker 24:
The first would be PC 110204 and the second would be PC 110217. No objection.
[00:36:37] Speaker 10:
Those two photos now identified by their P number are in evidence as 184 and 185. Thank you for the correction, 183 and 184.
[00:37:06] Speaker 24:
Ms. Gilman, can we have what's now been marked as exhibit 183, which is PC 110204? Director, you're directing your attention to what's been marked as exhibit 183. What observations did you make of this carpet while it was being unrolled?
[00:37:33] Speaker 20:
I observed the same types of red-brown stains on the carpet. There were also more areas of clotted blood, and there were also areas with white, clumpy, powdery substance. Some of it was discolored from the fluid that was on it.
[00:37:59] Speaker 24:
And Ms. Gilman, can we have exhibit 184, which is PC One, one, zero, two, one, seven. So close. And doctor, is this the same section of carpet?
[00:38:18] Speaker 15:
Yes.
[00:38:20] Speaker 24:
Now doctor, on this section, were you still able to observe the red-brown staining and the white substance? Yes. In addition to making these observations of the white substance, Did you identify anything as far as potential hairs?
[00:38:43] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[00:38:44] Speaker 24:
Ms. Gilmour, if you could take that down.
[00:38:52] Speaker 09:
Yes.
[00:38:57] Speaker 24:
Doctor, you recognize this image?
[00:38:59] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[00:39:00] Speaker 24:
Is that a collection of hairs that you saw on that section of carpet?
[00:39:04] Speaker 20:
It is.
[00:39:05] Speaker 24:
Your honor, the Commonwealth would seek to enter PC 110243 as the next exhibit.
[00:39:14] Speaker 10:
It's in evidence now is 185, 110243.
[00:39:30] Speaker 09:
Yes.
[00:39:32] Speaker 24:
Ms. Gilman, could we have PC110243? Doctor, directing your attention to Exhibit 185, what did you do with this collection of hairs?
[00:39:44] Speaker 20:
I collected all the hairs that I could find on the piece of carpet, including this clump, and I put them in an evidence envelope and sealed it and signed it.
[00:39:59] Speaker 24:
And Ms. Gilman, if you could take that down. Doctor, besides making observations of the section of carpet, as far as what you saw on it, did you have the opportunity to go through that material and find any objects in it?
[00:40:17] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[00:40:24] Speaker 09:
Yes.
[00:40:29] Speaker 24:
Doctor, do you recognize this image?
[00:40:31] Speaker 20:
Yes, I do.
[00:40:32] Speaker 24:
Is that a close up of the section of carpet with a hand holding a ruler that you had to do the opportunity to examine OCME?
[00:40:41] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[00:40:42] Speaker 24:
The Commonwealth would seek to mark this as the next exhibit model which is PC 110208. No objection.
[00:40:51] Speaker 10:
The total with that ID is now in evidence as 186.
[00:41:03] Speaker 26:
Yes.
[00:41:06] Speaker 24:
Ms. Gilman, could we have PC 110208? So doctor, directing your attention to this image, whose hand is that?
[00:41:18] Speaker 20:
That is my hand with a glove.
[00:41:20] Speaker 24:
And what is the ruler next to?
[00:41:24] Speaker 20:
Just above the ruler, you can see a metal item that has a loop on one side. It appeared to me to be some sort of jewelry charm without a chain attached.
[00:41:42] Speaker 24:
And, doctor, around that area is that white substance, is that what you were talking about as the white powdery substance? And I don't want to misstate you if it's not powdery, but what is that? Was that what you saw that day?
[00:41:55] Speaker 20:
Yes, almost all of these clumps are that same powdery, clumpy substance. Some of them look red and brown and tan, probably because of the liquid that made them clump.
[00:42:10] Speaker 24:
Ms. Gimlin, if you could take that down. Thank you. Doctor, what did you do with that piece of metal
[00:42:19] Speaker 20:
I photographed it and I also placed it into an envelope and saved it for evidence.
[00:42:30] Speaker 11:
May I approach the mic? You may.
[00:42:35] Speaker 24:
Doctor, do you recognize this image?
[00:42:37] Speaker 20:
Yes, I do.
[00:42:38] Speaker 24:
Is that a picture of the piece of metal that you photographed by an envelope?
[00:42:44] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[00:42:44] Speaker 24:
The Commonwealth would seek to have Any objection? No objection.
[00:42:55] Speaker 10:
110245. That image is in evidence as 187.
[00:43:00] Speaker 24:
With the court's permission, Your Honor, we will publish 187. You may. Ms. Gilman, can we have PC 110245? Thank you. So, Doctor, is this the photographing of the piece of metal that you spoke of?
[00:43:19] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[00:43:20] Speaker 24:
And that envelope, is that the envelope you put it into that's in the photograph?
[00:43:24] Speaker 20:
Yes, it is.
[00:43:34] Speaker 10:
You want me to put it? Yes.
[00:43:36] Speaker 24:
Doctor, there's gloves beneath you. Doctor, I'm handing you a glassine envelope. I'm going to ask, do you recognize the envelope that's inside the glassine envelope?
[00:44:05] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[00:44:06] Speaker 24:
And did you have the opportunity to look inside that paper envelope this morning? Yes, I did. Is that the same paper envelope that you put the piece of metal in at the OCME?
[00:44:17] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[00:44:17] Speaker 24:
And the yellow sticker on the exterior of the envelope, what is that number on it?
[00:44:24] Speaker 20:
That's the same OCME number that was the number of this case.
[00:44:32] Speaker 24:
And on the front of it, do you recognize the writing on the front?
[00:44:36] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[00:44:37] Speaker 24:
And how do you recognize that?
[00:44:39] Speaker 20:
That is my handwriting describing what this was.
[00:44:42] Speaker 24:
And can you look inside the envelope? You recognize the object, sir?
[00:44:53] Speaker 20:
Yes, I do.
[00:44:54] Speaker 24:
Is that the piece of metal that you found in the rug while you were doing your examination at OCMA?
[00:45:00] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[00:45:00] Speaker 24:
If you could hold on to it for one moment. Sure. Your Honor, the convolves seek to have the glassine envelope that has the paper envelope and the piece of metal inside the paper envelope as the next exhibit.
[00:45:11] Speaker 10:
Any objection? No objection. It's now in evidence as 188.
[00:45:35] Speaker 24:
Doctor, did you recognize any writing on exhibit 188, the piece of metal? Anything that was pressed into it?
[00:45:43] Speaker 20:
Yes, there was an engraving of Gucci on one side.
[00:45:46] Speaker 22:
Do I have an approach?
[00:46:00] Speaker 09:
Yes.
[00:46:06] Speaker 24:
Doctor, do you recognize that image?
[00:46:08] Speaker 20:
Yes, I do.
[00:46:09] Speaker 24:
What is that image on?
[00:46:11] Speaker 20:
This is the plastic container that I saved, a large amount of this clumped substance, and also all of the blood clots that I found.
[00:46:25] Speaker 24:
I will now proceed to have this marked as the next exhibit, which is file number PC110222.
[00:46:33] Speaker 10:
Any objection? No objection. PC 110222 is now in evidence as exhibit 189.
[00:46:49] Speaker 24:
Your Honor, may the Commonwealth publish exhibit 189?
[00:46:52] Speaker 07:
Yes.
[00:46:54] Speaker 24:
Ms. Gilman, could we have PC 110222? So, Doctor, this container, what did you do with this container?
[00:47:07] Speaker 20:
I put a lid on this container and then we put it in a freezer.
[00:47:12] Speaker 24:
And why do you put it in a freezer?
[00:47:15] Speaker 20:
For DNA analysis, that's the preferred method of preserving the tissue.
[00:47:20] Speaker 24:
And Ms. Goodwin, if you could close out of that. Doc, did you take any other samples that day while you were making your examination of the rugs?
[00:47:30] Speaker 20:
Yes, I did.
[00:47:31] Speaker 24:
What did you take for samples?
[00:47:33] Speaker 20:
I saw in some of, I painstakingly mushed through a lot of this crumbly substance and there was one area near one of the blood clots that appeared to have some specks of something that could possibly be tissue. The clumped areas appeared to be tissue at first or possibly tissue, but upon further inspection, it was obvious that none of this clumped powdery material was actually any kind of tissue. But this one area had very small specks of something that I thought might not be the same type of powder. So I put this area, I saved that for looking at under the microscope.
[00:48:26] Speaker 24:
And how do you do that, sir?
[00:48:29] Speaker 20:
How do you save it? Please. You put it into a cassette.
[00:48:34] Speaker 24:
And do you have to add anything to the substance to put it in the cassette?
[00:48:41] Speaker 20:
No, but you put the cassettes into formalin. It's like formaldehyde that preserves the tissue.
[00:48:47] Speaker 24:
What happens, and now, did you do, you did that with the tiny specs, did you do that with any other items that day? Make formula, put things into formula?
[00:48:56] Speaker 20:
No, I saved the blood clots mainly for DNA testing.
[00:49:01] Speaker 24:
And if I may have a moment, Your Honor.
[00:49:05] Speaker 11:
You may.
[00:49:12] Speaker 24:
Nothing further, Your Honor.
[00:49:16] Speaker 10:
Last exam.
[00:49:35] Speaker 26:
Good morning, Doctor.
[00:49:36] Speaker 20:
Good morning.
[00:49:37] Speaker 27:
You used the word a moment ago on direct examination, you painstakingly went through some of the material that you found on the rub. Yes. And you did that very carefully. Yes. You were paying close attention because that's how you're trained and that's what you do.
[00:49:57] Speaker 19:
Correct.
[00:49:58] Speaker 27:
I want to just talk to you, the beginning here, about your position. You are a deputy chief of the medical examiner, correct?
[00:50:14] Speaker 20:
I am no longer the deputy chief medical examiner.
[00:50:16] Speaker 27:
Okay. I'm looking at your CV and I'm wondering if it's just an older one.
[00:50:23] Speaker 20:
It must be an older one, yes.
[00:50:24] Speaker 27:
Okay. Can you tell us, sir, what you are now? What's your title?
[00:50:28] Speaker 20:
I am a medical examiner now.
[00:50:29] Speaker 27:
Okay. When did you stop being a deputy chief?
[00:50:33] Speaker 20:
I served as deputy chief from 2018 until 2022.
[00:50:38] Speaker 27:
So when you were the deputy chief and now when you're, I want to say simply a medical examiner, you're still doing very important work. Were you doing this type of work that you're doing as a medical examiner in your role as a deputy chief medical examiner? Yes, I was.
[00:50:59] UNKNOWN:
Okay.
[00:50:59] Speaker 27:
And there's a lot of responsibility attached to being a deputy chief medical examiner as well as just a medical examiner. And once again, my use of just a doesn't imply anything. I hope you know that. Can I ask you something then, knowing now that this might be an older CV? Are you now or were you once a member of the Massachusetts Commission on Medical Legal Investigation?
[00:51:31] Speaker 20:
Yes, I was.
[00:51:32] Speaker 27:
But you're no longer? Correct. And when I say no longer, that position is basically time controlled by the statute to creating that commission. Is that fair to say?
[00:51:46] Speaker 20:
I have no idea.
[00:51:47] Speaker 27:
Okay. How long were you on the commission?
[00:51:51] Speaker 20:
I think it was approximately the same, maybe a year in either direction of when I was deputy.
[00:51:59] Speaker 27:
And that commission was created by statute to promote the use and skills of the medical legal investigation of deaths, correct? Yes. And you and other people assigned to that commission did the important work of trying to ensure that, uh, medical legal investigations are thorough and exacting and, um, reliable.
[00:52:29] Speaker 19:
Correct.
[00:52:30] Speaker 27:
And on that commission, there are, uh, police officers, law enforcement, uh, the insurance, medical examiner, correct?
[00:52:44] UNKNOWN:
Yes.
[00:52:45] Speaker 27:
Can you tell the jury what that phrase means, medico-legal, medico-legal investigation?
[00:52:52] Speaker 20:
Sure. It refers to any type of medical investigation that has the potential to also involve the legal system.
[00:53:04] Speaker 27:
Okay. And that's what medical examiners do. They get involved in the legal system because they're trying to determine cause and manner of death. Correct?
[00:53:14] Speaker 19:
Correct.
[00:53:16] Speaker 27:
Now, I look at your CV, and I see that you have published in the area, certain medical-related areas, correct? Yes. And the journals that you published in are well-respected and peer-reviewed. I mean, they're important journals. Sure. And I see that on your CV, you also list, on this CV, two abstract, under the abstract title, two presentations that I think are characterized as posters, correct? Yes. And when we say posters, we're literally talking about physical posters, correct? Yes. And the information on posters, it's equally important. It helps educate people. You're providing very valuable information to people, regardless of the form that it takes, correct? Correct. either while you were deputy chief medical examiner or in your capacity now as a medical examiner. Do you participate in lectures or sometimes they're called rounds with your colleagues and discuss aspects that pertain to your work? Yes. And people present during those lectures on particular areas of either evolving forensic pathology or just what you're experiencing within the office itself, correct? Is that fair to say? That is fair to say. And I think you testified on Friday that you have completed 1,000 or more autopsies. Did I hear that right?
[00:54:49] Speaker 20:
Yes, I said 1,500, more than 1,500.
[00:54:52] Speaker 27:
Oh, I short-changed you. I apologize. That's a lot of autopsies, isn't it? Sure. And you told us on Friday that it can be a relatively short period of time, or an autopsy can take as long as a day or more. Correct. And when you're doing an autopsy, you told us on Friday that you're trying to determine the manner of death. That's one of the goals of your examination during an autopsy, correct? Yes. One of the things that the Office of Chief Medical Examiner here in Massachusetts does is it's responsible by law to investigate various forms of death, correct? Correct. And that includes death by accident or unintentional injury, suicide, correct? Sure. And it includes death that is under suspicious or unusual circumstances, correct? Yes. And in fact, it includes death that may occur if somebody's in jail custody or something like that, correct? Correct. It also specifically includes a requirement that you investigate sudden death, correct? Correct. And it requires that you investigate sudden death when the decedent was in apparent good health, correct? Correct. And that phrase that I just used, sudden death of the decedent who was in apparent good health, that is contained in the statute that applies to the Office of Chief Medical Examiner, isn't it?
[00:56:34] Speaker 20:
I believe so, yes.
[00:56:36] Speaker 27:
And so the statute and what you do as a medical examiner, you have to investigate where there is sufficient or information that suggests that someone suddenly died, correct?
[00:56:53] Speaker 19:
Correct.
[00:56:54] Speaker 27:
And specifically where somebody suddenly died that otherwise with what they were in good health, correct?
[00:57:01] Speaker 19:
Correct.
[00:57:02] Speaker 27:
And that statute requires that certain people like police officers, physicians, hospital administrators, Licensed nurses, DCF social workers, funeral directors, they are required by that statute to report that information to the Office of Chief Medical Examiner, aren't they? Yes, they are. Or they could be fined under the statute, right?
[00:57:29] Speaker 20:
I don't know that for sure, but I'll take your word for it.
[00:57:32] Speaker 27:
Okay, thank you. So now turning to just manner of death, manner of death can be, and please correct me if I'm wrong, manner of death can be classified as accident, correct? Correct. Suicide? Yes. Homicide? Yes. And then there's a category of undetermined or could not be determined, correct? Is it fair to say that a manner of death that results in a classification of undetermined is a classification when the information pointing to one manner of death is no more compelling than one or more competing manners of death after considering all the information you have? That is correct. So you are familiar, aren't you, Dr. Atkinson, with the National Association of Medical Examiners? Yes. Sometimes it goes by the acronym of NAME, M-A-M-E. Correct. You're also familiar with their 2002 publication, A Guide for the Manner of Death Classification, correct? Yes. And that particular document is kept at the Office of Chief Medical Examiner, isn't it? Like it is in many offices, correct?
[00:58:51] Speaker 20:
It's on the internet, that's where I usually look at it.
[00:58:55] Speaker 27:
So it's available to look at for medical examiners when they're just reviewing some of the material that's in that 2002 publication. Yes. It also lists specifically those four manner of deaths that we just talked about. Yes, and others. I'm sorry, I had to cut you off.
[00:59:16] Speaker 20:
And others, too.
[00:59:17] Speaker 27:
And others. And then that guide goes through anecdotal or, you know, it's my word, not yours, but it goes through examples of what types of causes of death may result in certain manners, correct?
[00:59:33] Speaker 19:
Correct.
[00:59:34] Speaker 27:
And a cause of death is different than a manner, isn't it? Yes. And so as your role of medical examiner, you will not only determine the manner of death, but you also will attempt to determine the cause of death. Right. And some of that information finds its way specifically in, for instance, a death certificate applicable to some individual, correct? Yes. It's very important to evaluate all the information you have before reaching a conclusion as to manner of death and causation, correct?
[01:00:07] Speaker 19:
Correct.
[01:00:07] Speaker 27:
And is it fair to say, Doctor, that without a physical body, the Office of Chief Medical Examiner cannot make a finding of either manner of death or cause of death?
[01:00:22] Speaker 20:
Without what, sorry?
[01:00:23] Speaker 27:
With a body.
[01:00:24] Speaker 20:
With a physical body. Without a body? Generally, we don't do that, no. Okay.
[01:00:30] Speaker 27:
Now, That 2002 guidelines, and it's current, in other words, there hasn't been a new issue, it's still current and it's published in 2002, correct? Correct. It does include, like you said, examples of causes of death and then tries to tell the reader, this is an example of a cause of death that could be considered a certain manner of death, correct? Yes. And I think it goes through, if you recall, multiple paragraphs, up to like 44, 46 different paragraphs of examples, correct? Correct. It actually includes things like, characterized as cafe coronary, upper airway food obstruction, correct? Correct. It goes through, it gives an example of death by fear or fright, right? Correct. It includes an explanation of death resulting from autoerotica behavior or consensual, atypical sexual behavior, correct?
[01:01:39] Speaker 19:
Correct.
[01:01:40] Speaker 27:
And it goes on to say, just as an example, specific to that cause of death, autoerotic behavior, it talks about that causation as being, in large part, considered accidental death.
[01:01:56] Speaker 20:
Specifically, autoerotic asphyxia, yes.
[01:01:59] Speaker 27:
OK, autoerotic asphyxia. Can you tell the jurors what asphyxia is?
[01:02:03] Speaker 20:
Asphyxia is anytime oxygen is deprived from parts of the body. In the case of autoerotic asphyxia, it's due to a ligature compressing the neck vasculature or the blood vessels in the neck.
[01:02:20] Speaker 27:
Now, I just want to talk to you for just a little bit about some of the causes that are considered to be causes of sudden unexpected death. We can agree, can't we, that sudden unexpected death is a rare occurrence? Sure. Well, is it rare or does it happen more often than rare?
[01:02:47] Speaker 20:
Any possible cause? It's pretty rare, I would say.
[01:02:51] Speaker 27:
OK. And there's any number of causes of sudden unexpected death, isn't there? Very many, yes. OK. And those causes for sudden unexpected death, they are known within the forensic pathology world, aren't they? Yes. And there, are they known to a lesser extent in the non-phoresical medical arena? Sure. And it's fair to say that based on your experience in training and knowledge of sudden unexpected death, you wouldn't expect that just a lay person would really understand sudden unexpected death. That is the parlance of educated people like yourself.
[01:03:41] Speaker 10:
Overall, he can answer if he can.
[01:03:43] Speaker 20:
I'm not totally sure what you mean. People understand certain causes of death.
[01:03:51] Speaker 27:
Okay. What about in the specific area of sudden unexpected death?
[01:03:55] Speaker 20:
Depends on the cause of death. I think most people understand what injuries are. Most people understand what a heart attack is.
[01:04:05] Speaker 27:
Okay. You would agree that sudden unexpected death can occur then as a result of cardiac causes?
[01:04:11] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[01:04:12] Speaker 27:
Of pulmonary causes.
[01:04:14] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[01:04:14] Speaker 27:
Of vascular causes.
[01:04:16] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[01:04:17] Speaker 27:
Reflexive causes. Yes. Of asphyxial causes.
[01:04:23] Speaker 20:
Correct.
[01:04:23] Speaker 27:
And even toxicology causes. Yes. And sudden unexpected death has been observed to occur both in young people and old people. Sure. And middle-aged people. All types. It occurs male and female. Yes. And there's some causes associated with sudden unexpected death that may be seen in experience that they occur more in the male population than the female population. Yes. One of those sudden unexpected death causations is the Brigada syndrome, correct? Correct. And without going into any great detail, the Brigada system is simply where somebody reportedly, and correct me if I'm wrong, basically lies in bed and dies and then utters something.
[01:05:15] Speaker 20:
I don't think that's necessary. It's a channelopathy. That's a usually genetic mutation or a mutation that you get from your parents that affects the ion channels in the heart, and it predisposes someone to a sudden arrhythmia, and arrhythmia is just an electrical disturbance of the heart. It doesn't have to happen at night, and I don't know about the utterance part.
[01:05:47] Speaker 27:
Okay, I apologize. In any event, sudden unexpected death can occur in individuals that otherwise appear to be healthy before the sudden death. Yes. And in fact, that's one of the references we've already talked about within the statute that we just talked about a minute ago. Sudden death occurring in someone that otherwise didn't have any manifestation of a physical illness or problem. Correct. And it's fair to say that based on your knowledge of sudden unexpected death, that it also occurs sometimes the sudden death itself can be the first manifestation that somebody had a problem, correct? And there are certain triggers associated with sudden unexpected death, and those triggers can include exertion, physical exertion.
[01:06:39] Speaker 20:
Are you, I'm confused. Are you talking about any kind of sudden unexpected death, including injuries? You can die unexpectedly and suddenly from almost any type of cause of death.
[01:06:55] Speaker 27:
Okay. Can, when I talk about, when I'm asking you these questions and if I'm not doing a good job, you correct me, but I'm talking about, for instance, sudden unexpected death where There is really no prior manifestation of a physical problem before someone experiences sudden unexpected death.
[01:07:17] Speaker 20:
Are you talking about a natural cause of death?
[01:07:21] Speaker 27:
A natural, yes. Yes. Not a death resulting from anything other than something natural and internal. Yes.
[01:07:29] Speaker 20:
OK. And what was the question again? Sorry.
[01:07:31] Speaker 27:
So a sudden unexpected death, given that characterization, The trigger for such a sudden unexpected death can include physical exertion, correct? Yes. But it also can occur without any particular physical exertion, correct?
[01:07:46] Speaker 19:
Correct.
[01:07:47] Speaker 27:
And it can include, for instance, in trained athletes who have been trained to do sports. It happens there too, correct? Yes. And it can happen as a result of sexual activity, for instance. And it can happen as a result of illness or stress, correct? Correct. And, I mean, it can happen, if you know, sir, it can happen as a result of travel or extended travel or things like that in a person. Sure. It's true, isn't it, doctor, that when we use the phrase sudden unexpected death, the death that we're talking about, and once again, let's, and I'm glad you corrected me, that we're talking about just natural death, natural causes, that a sudden unexpected death can happen suddenly, but not necessarily instantaneously.
[01:08:49] Speaker 20:
Correct? Depending on which type of disease would cause it? Yes.
[01:08:53] Speaker 27:
So for instance, that example you talked about, if someone develops in a natural way a lethal arrhythmia, an example of a particular fibrillation, it could result in death, correct? Yes. And that mechanism, I'm going to call it a mechanism but you tell me if it's different, that the heart chambers quiver and they fluctuate and that's what causes the fibrillation, right?
[01:09:27] Speaker 20:
Yes, it's an electrical disturbance that makes it so that the heart stops pumping.
[01:09:33] Speaker 27:
And at times when you examine someone who has experienced this on an autopsy, you actually don't see, and I'm not talking about you personally, but I'm talking about medical examiners related to this, you don't see any structural defect in the heart.
[01:09:51] Speaker 20:
Of people who have died from natural causes? Yes, yes. From a cardiac dysrhythmia? Yes. You can't diagnose a cardiac dysrhythmia unless the person died while attached to a cardiac monitor that can see the actual dysrhythmia happening. Several, in fact, most cardiac dysrhythmias, you do see something structural in the heart. The one you were talking about before, Brugada syndrome, several others like Long QT syndrome will not have visible, even under the microscope, signs.
[01:10:29] Speaker 27:
You just used the phrase long QT. Could you just define that for the jury?
[01:10:34] Speaker 20:
That's another channelopathy that affects the ion channels in the cell membranes of the cardiac cells.
[01:10:44] Speaker 27:
And let's just stick to the case of a particular fibrillation and someone who suddenly dies as a result. It's fair to say that during that process that They can continue to look and appear as if they're making movements that there might be conscious, but in fact, their body is dying and they then experience sudden death.
[01:11:17] Speaker 20:
Usually if you're having a cardiac dysrhythmia, you can have movements, seizure-like activity. but usually you're not looking like a normal person would. It's very quick.
[01:11:32] Speaker 27:
And sometimes in your experience as a medical examiner, you've had reports where people talk about the minutes before or the short time period before someone experienced sudden death, and they talk about the way they were moving or they were even walking, but they might have been mumbling, and then they die. And they describe those behaviors to you, don't they?
[01:11:55] Speaker 20:
Occasionally, we'll get something like that reported to us.
[01:12:00] Speaker 27:
Okay. And you listen to that information and being the trained medical examiner you are, then you consider that information in the context of the sudden unexpected death. You just include the information because you are interested in getting all the information you can. Correct. And once again, sudden unexpected death can result from vascular catastrophes. That's my word. Sure. And those catastrophes can be aorta dissection, aorta rupture, or an aneurysm, correct?
[01:12:33] Speaker 20:
Among many others, yes.
[01:12:35] Speaker 27:
And this sudden unexpected death in this area can be the result of acute squeezing of a particular body part.
[01:12:47] Speaker 20:
I'm not sure what you're talking about.
[01:12:50] Speaker 27:
In medical terms, tamponade.
[01:12:54] Speaker 20:
Cardiac tamponade? Yes. Cardiac tamponade happens when there's bleeding into the pericardium. That's the sac, a membranous sac that surrounds the heart. And when enough blood gets into that sac, it displaces the heart and doesn't allow the heart to open up. It basically stops the ability of the heart to pump.
[01:13:22] Speaker 27:
Now, I just want to move on to another simple cause. Are you familiar with the phrase, I'm sure you are, sudden arrhythmic death syndrome? Yes. And it's accurate to say that sudden unexpected death with a normal heart at autopsy accounts for 5 to 10 percent of young adult sudden deaths.
[01:13:42] Speaker 20:
Of natural deaths?
[01:13:43] Speaker 27:
Of natural deaths, yes sir. And now I'm not going to get this one right, but are you familiar with the acronym of CPVT? No. Catecholaminergic tachycardia. I probably butchered that up. Does that ring a bell?
[01:14:11] Speaker 20:
Catecholaminergic.
[01:14:14] Speaker 27:
Thank you.
[01:14:15] Speaker 20:
Yes. I still don't know what the other two letters stand for.
[01:14:19] Speaker 27:
Okay. Polymorphic ventricular tachycardia.
[01:14:24] Speaker 20:
I said it wrong again, but... That's probably another dysrhythmia. Okay. Or tachycardia is a fast heartbeat.
[01:14:35] Speaker 27:
Now, Once again, in these types of causes of sudden unexpected death, in each one that we just briefly described, in each one of the cases, the person who then experiences sudden death can be viewed in the moments, whether it be minutes or a few minutes or seconds, they can be viewed by someone observing them as still moving or at times even talking until death results, correct? Correct. Then there are neurological causes for sudden unexpected death, correct? Sure. And they are arrhythmia linked. Am I right in saying that? They're linked to arrhythmias.
[01:15:20] Speaker 20:
They can be.
[01:15:22] Speaker 27:
And they're linked to hemorrhaging and stroke and things like that. Sure. And people can experience sudden unexpected death as a result of a neurological cause where they have up to that point not manifested any physical manifestation of illness, correct? Correct. Once again, moving on, there's pulmonary causes of sudden unexpected death, aren't there? Yes. For instance, massive pulmonary embolism is the leading cause of sudden unexpected death in young adults, isn't it?
[01:15:59] Speaker 20:
It's one of them, yes.
[01:16:01] Speaker 27:
And this is one of those causes of death that can result from one of the triggers, including recent travel, right? That's one of them, yes. Hormonal therapy? Yes. And just moving on to two more examples, and we talked about it. There are also asphyxial causes of sudden and unexpected death, correct? Correct. Those asphyxial causes of sudden unexpected death, sometimes they're characterized as, they happen when someone is hanging or experiencing strangulation. Is that fair to say?
[01:16:45] Speaker 20:
That is one cause of asphyxia, yes.
[01:16:47] Speaker 27:
But asphyxia can be caused by a positional obstruction, correct? Correct. Can you tell the jury what a positional obstruction is in this context?
[01:16:59] Speaker 20:
That would be something that either blocks your face so you can't breathe or something that sometimes in a car accident will or a better example, anything that if you have a heavy weight on your torso, sometimes that keeps you from being able to expand your lungs. This kind of death is called positional asphyxia.
[01:17:31] Speaker 27:
I see. And is it the result of as part of the mechanism for this is hypoxia results?
[01:17:38] Speaker 20:
That's what happens, yes.
[01:17:40] Speaker 27:
And the hypoxia, could you tell the jury what hypoxia is?
[01:17:43] Speaker 20:
Hypoxia is just lack of oxygen.
[01:17:49] Speaker 27:
And I'm not going to say it right, but I'll try. Vagal reflex pathway, a cause for sudden unexpected death. Sure. And that's also related to a form of asphyxia or compression stress.
[01:18:09] Speaker 20:
It can be.
[01:18:10] Speaker 27:
It can be. And can you just tell the jury briefly what the mechanism for that is?
[01:18:17] Speaker 20:
A vagal, that usually causes a cardiac dysrhythmia as well.
[01:18:24] Speaker 27:
Okay, and can that occur when there is some pressure on the vagal nerve?
[01:18:31] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[01:18:32] Speaker 27:
And where is the vagal nerve?
[01:18:34] Speaker 20:
The vagus nerve is in the neck and upper portion of the chest.
[01:18:39] Speaker 27:
So if something is putting pressure on the neck of an individual, that could result in this vagal reflex pathway or vaginal reflex issue that could result in sudden unexpected death. And that sudden unexpected death in that situation can occur, once again, in someone that simply has not manifested any physical problems to the observer.
[01:19:10] Speaker 20:
Right, until the pressure is put on their neck.
[01:19:19] Speaker 27:
Dr. Atkinson, you know Dr. Mindy Hull, don't you?
[01:19:24] Speaker 15:
Yes, I do.
[01:19:25] Speaker 27:
And she is presently the chief medical examiner of the Office of Chief Medical Examiner?
[01:19:30] Speaker 19:
Correct.
[01:19:30] Speaker 27:
I didn't say that right. And you're familiar with the fact that she has, in fact, presented to your colleagues at the Office of Chief Medical Examiner on causations involving and resulting in sudden and unexpected death, aren't you? Yes. And so this topic of sudden unexpected death, you can find it in the research and you can find it in the experience of trained and professional medical examiners like yourself, of course. So just to conclude, we can all agree, isn't it, that sudden unexpected death is rare, correct? Maybe I'm overstating that. I'm sorry.
[01:20:22] Speaker 20:
People die suddenly quite often, but depending on what parameters you're talking about, in a young person that has no medical history, yes, it's rare.
[01:20:35] Speaker 27:
It's rare for someone without medical history. You see it more often in the forensic setting than say someone sees it in just a non-forensic setting. Is that fair to say? Because that's part of your job. Yes. And it occurs in individuals who otherwise have never manifested any medical problem.
[01:20:59] Speaker 20:
It can.
[01:21:04] Speaker 26:
Thank you, doctor. Thank you very much.
[01:21:06] Speaker 10:
Any redirect? Yes, Your Honor. Right ahead.
[01:21:11] Speaker 14:
Thank you.
[01:21:20] Speaker 24:
Doctor, regarding the vagal reflex pathway in sudden unexpected deaths that result in that, how common is that in a healthy adult female with no medical history?
[01:21:36] Speaker 20:
It depends on, definitely not common at all.
[01:21:42] Speaker 24:
In this case that you were working on, what evidence did you see of someone suffering from an injury to the vagal reflux pathway?
[01:21:56] Speaker 20:
There was no evidence at all in this case of any type of death.
[01:22:01] Speaker 24:
Okay.
[01:22:01] Speaker 20:
Or at least there was no body to autopsy.
[01:22:05] Speaker 24:
So that's kind of a follow-up question to that. There's no body to autopsy. What would you have looked at in the body if you were looking for, say, an issue with the vagal reflex?
[01:22:20] Speaker 20:
Well, something like a cardiac channelopathy can't be diagnosed at autopsy, but it's a diagnosis of exclusion. that we only ever would put on a death certificate, because it's so rare, if we did a full autopsy that excluded injuries, that excluded toxicology as a possible cause of death, that excluded all the far more likely causes of natural death, like pulmonary embolism or heart disease. So without doing an autopsy to exclude all those things, a sudden arrhythmia disorder is at the very bottom of the list of possibilities.
[01:23:12] Speaker 24:
What would you have looked at in a case to determine if someone died of hypoxia in an autopsy? What would you have looked at?
[01:23:21] Speaker 20:
That totally depends on what's causing the hypoxia. If it's a hanging or a strangulation, you would look for injuries of the neck, a ligature furrow on the neck. Other types of hypoxia would have other types of findings.
[01:23:37] Speaker 24:
What would you look at during an autopsy to diagnose a pulmonary embolism?
[01:23:45] Speaker 20:
You can actually see the pulmonary embolism. It's a clot that usually comes from the leg veins and goes into the pulmonary arteries. And you can see that inside of the pulmonary arteries.
[01:23:59] Speaker 24:
What would you look at during an autopsy to diagnose some neurological cause of death?
[01:24:06] Speaker 20:
Other than sometimes seizures that have no findings at autopsy, you could see bleeding around the brain stem that is a subarachnoid hemorrhage from a burst aneurysm, for example.
[01:24:23] Speaker 24:
And when you do an autopsy, how do you see the bleeding around the brain stem?
[01:24:30] Speaker 20:
You can just see it with your eyes and take photographs of it.
[01:24:34] Speaker 24:
You earlier described cardiac topinade. Did I get that right?
[01:24:39] Speaker 20:
Yes. Okay.
[01:24:41] Speaker 24:
And again, that was bleeding into the pericardial sac.
[01:24:45] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[01:24:47] Speaker 24:
Would that be painful?
[01:24:49] Speaker 20:
It can be painful.
[01:24:52] Speaker 24:
Now, with this matter, What access did you have to determine a manner of death regarding this case, which was 23, forgive me. I want to get your number right. Regarding case 230493, what did the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner have access to to determine a cause of death?
[01:25:30] Speaker 20:
We did not determine a cause or manner of death.
[01:25:33] Speaker 24:
And why didn't you determine a cause or manner of death?
[01:25:36] Speaker 20:
Because we had no body to autopsy.
[01:25:39] Speaker 24:
With these sudden unexpected deaths that were reviewed with you, does someone have to have a physical injury in order for these to come on? No. So these can occur without a physical injury?
[01:25:54] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[01:25:56] Speaker 24:
And when you've had access to autopsies to make these findings, have you ever seen a sudden unexpected death where there were no injuries? Yes. Moment, Your Honor. Yes. Thank you, Your Honor. Doctor, you reviewed... When you have access to a body for an autopsy, what do you get access to as far as medical records?
[01:26:45] Speaker 20:
We investigate where the person might have ever gone for medical care, sometimes from family members that will tell us, and we request records from all of those places. If we don't know that information, we sometimes send out a blind request to a lot of hospitals in the area.
[01:27:04] Speaker 24:
And with some of these sudden unexpected deaths, do you also get access to statements of people who see the decedent right before they die?
[01:27:11] Speaker 20:
Yes.
[01:27:12] Speaker 24:
And so does that help you with the diagnosis?
[01:27:14] Speaker 20:
Yes, it does.
[01:27:15] Speaker 24:
And did you have any access to any statements regarding Ms. Walsh before she died? No. With these sudden unexpected deaths that were reviewed through you, pulmonary, neurological, and the rest, how common are they with a healthy adult female?
[01:27:45] Speaker 20:
How old is this?
[01:27:47] Speaker 24:
39 years old. They're very uncommon. And on the effect of travel, there was some discussion of the effect of travel. And how would travel affect someone as far as a sudden unexpected death?
[01:28:04] Speaker 20:
Generally, that refers to travel being a risk factor for pulmonary emboli or deep venous thrombosis, DVTs of the leg. And it usually occurs in very long flights where the person doesn't get up and move their legs.
[01:28:22] Speaker 24:
How common is it in a flight, say that's 90 minutes?
[01:28:26] Speaker 20:
Less common than a longer flight?
[01:28:29] Speaker 24:
Nothing further you're on.
[01:28:32] Speaker 10:
Any recross?
[01:28:35] Speaker 26:
If I heard you right, that sometimes sudden unexpected death that you looked at, there's no injury at all.
[01:28:44] Speaker 19:
Correct.
[01:28:45] Speaker 26:
Thank you, Doctor.
[01:28:48] Speaker 10:
Doctor, you may step down.
[01:28:53] UNKNOWN:
Thank you.
[01:28:53] Speaker 10:
I'll call with my call. It's next witness.
[01:29:10] Speaker 24:
Thank you, Your Honor. I'll call with my call. It's Teresa Marchetti.
[01:29:32] Speaker 28:
You may proceed. Thank you, Your Honor. Good morning, ma'am.
[01:29:52] Speaker 24:
Good morning. I'm going to ask if you can pull the microphone closer to you, because it will help keep your voice nice and loud. Could you state your name and spell your last name for the record?
[01:30:04] Speaker 01:
Theresa Marchese. M-A-R-C-H-E-S-E. Where do you work, ma'am? Washington, D.C. For what company? Tishman Spire.
[01:30:14] Speaker 24:
And what is your role at Tishman Spire?
[01:30:17] Speaker 01:
I'm a managing director in the Human Capital Management Group.
[01:30:20] Speaker 24:
How long have you been with Tishman Spire?
[01:30:22] Speaker 01:
Over 20 years.
[01:30:23] Speaker 24:
And what are your responsibilities as the Director of the Human Capital Management Group?
[01:30:28] Speaker 01:
A variety of areas. We focus on hiring, recruitment, benefits, employee relations, essentially the life cycle of your employment within the company.
[01:30:41] Speaker 24:
And would this touch upon human resources? Yes. Now, what is Tishman Spires business?
[01:30:48] Speaker 01:
Primarily real estate.
[01:30:51] Speaker 24:
I'd like to ask you some questions about Anna Walsh. Are you familiar with Anna Walsh?
[01:30:55] Speaker 01:
Yes.
[01:30:55] Speaker 24:
When did you first meet Anna Walsh?
[01:30:57] Speaker 01:
When I interviewed her in November of 2021.
[01:31:00] Speaker 24:
And what position were you interviewing her for?
[01:31:04] Speaker 01:
She had applied for a role in Boston, regional general manager role there.
[01:31:10] Speaker 24:
And was Ms. Walsh subsequently hired?
[01:31:14] Speaker 01:
Yes.
[01:31:14] Speaker 24:
For what role?
[01:31:15] Speaker 01:
I hired her for a role in Washington DC.
[01:31:18] Speaker 24:
And why'd you hire her for a role in Washington, D.C.?
[01:31:22] Speaker 01:
We had a role open for quite some time that we were looking for with someone who had a hospitality background, which Anna had, and I thought she would be better suited.
[01:31:33] Speaker 24:
And when would she offer the job in Washington?
[01:31:41] Speaker 01:
She started with us in February 2022. In Boston.
[01:31:45] Speaker 24:
In Boston? Yeah. How long was she in Boston for before she transferred to Washington, D.C.?
[01:31:51] Speaker 01:
I believe a month-ish.
[01:31:54] Speaker 24:
Now, in your office space in Washington, in that office space in Washington, where was Ms. Walsh's desk in relation to yours?
[01:32:10] Speaker 01:
We are in an open floor plan, and so there are four seats per quad, I guess. She was about two in front of me.
[01:32:21] Speaker 24:
Now, when she moved to the D.C. area, did you learn where she moved to? I did. Where did she move to, roughly? Friendship Heights. And what was her compensation when she joined Tishman Spire? $220,000 base. And on top of the base, was there a potential for a bonus? Yes. Now, did she receive any benefits as a result of becoming a member of Tishman's Buyer? Yes. What did she receive as far as life insurance?
[01:32:50] Speaker 01:
Two times her annual salary.
[01:32:53] Speaker 24:
And what company provided that policy?
[01:32:55] Speaker 01:
We did. MetLife.
[01:32:57] Speaker 24:
MetLife, thank you. Your Honor, at this point in time, the Commonwealth would enter into the policy, the MetLife life insurance policy for Anahuach as a stipulated community.
[01:33:14] Speaker 10:
All right, is that we're marking it as 190, the MetLife policy for Anahuach. Now in evidence.
[01:33:28] Speaker 02:
190.
[01:33:38] Speaker 24:
How much was the life insurance policy for?
[01:33:40] Speaker 01:
Two times her annual base salary.
[01:33:43] Speaker 24:
And are you familiar with who the beneficiaries were of the policy? Yes. Who were the beneficiaries?
[01:33:48] Speaker 01:
Her husband and her three children.
[01:33:51] Speaker 24:
Now, what were her responsibilities in working at the Washington DC office for Tishman's Buyer?
[01:34:00] Speaker 01:
She was hired as a co-head of the property management group.
[01:34:04] Speaker 24:
Okay. And so did she have specific properties she had to manage in DC?
[01:34:11] Speaker 01:
She spent most of her time with us at the crossing, but her job was not just that building.
[01:34:19] Speaker 24:
Okay. What other buildings did she have to manage?
[01:34:26] Speaker 01:
Essentially, she had oversight to an extent. She shared it with her counterpart for all of our assets. So there were, honestly, I can't remember at the time how many we have. We're probably five, six now.
[01:34:41] Speaker 24:
Okay. Was there a building called the Mazza Gallery or Galleria?
[01:34:47] Speaker 01:
So Maza was, is, was a development site.
[01:34:51] Speaker 24:
Yes.
[01:34:52] Speaker 01:
That we had. It was formerly a mall. Tishman's Fire purchased it under the grounds that we would redevelop, turn it into apartments and some retail.
[01:35:03] Speaker 24:
And did she have any interplay, did she have any responsibilities over that project?
[01:35:07] Speaker 01:
Yes.
[01:35:09] Speaker 24:
And you had earlier stated the crossing as well? Correct. What type of building was the crossing?
[01:35:15] Speaker 01:
The crossing was a residential apartment building.
[01:35:19] Speaker 24:
Now, in 2022, did the Tishman Spire offices in DC close for the New Year's holiday?
[01:35:32] Speaker 01:
Yes. So New Year's, our holiday schedule rotates. OK. But I believe New Year's Eve that year we were closed, or it was a floating holiday. OK. And then New Year's Day were closed.
[01:35:45] Speaker 24:
OK. When was it the first day that people returned back to the Washington DC offices, if you know?
[01:35:57] Speaker 01:
January 3rd.
[01:35:59] Speaker 24:
January 3rd, okay. Now, while you worked with Ms. Walsh, was there any problems with her as far as her employment? No. Were there any safety concerns for her as far as her employment?
[01:36:16] Speaker 01:
No.
[01:36:17] Speaker 24:
Did she require any physical accommodations while she was employed with you?
[01:36:20] UNKNOWN:
No.
[01:36:22] Speaker 24:
When was the last time you saw Anna Walsh?
[01:36:26] Speaker 01:
It was December. It was the 15th, perhaps. We had a women's event in the office.
[01:36:37] Speaker 24:
And at this event in December, I take it was 2022? Correct. Okay. And what was her demeanor like at this event?
[01:36:45] Speaker 01:
Normal, happy, social.
[01:36:51] Speaker 24:
And did you see any injuries on Ms. Walsh when you were with her that night or that day at the women's event?
[01:36:56] Speaker 01:
No.
[01:36:57] Speaker 24:
Now, when did you first learn that Anna Walsh was missing?
[01:37:02] Speaker 01:
January 4th.
[01:37:04] Speaker 24:
And how were you alerted that Ms. Walsh was missing?
[01:37:07] Speaker 01:
A co-worker came over to let me know that her husband had called the crossing team looking for her.
[01:37:18] Speaker 24:
So with this information, what did you do to try and con... Well, with this information, what did you decide to do?
[01:37:25] Speaker 01:
I said, you know, I'll reach out to him. Do you have a phone number?
[01:37:29] Speaker 24:
Okay. And what was the name of the person you tried to reach out to? Brian Walsh. Where did you go to try and reach out to him? Did you call him from your office?
[01:37:41] Speaker 01:
I called him from my cell phone.
[01:37:43] Speaker 24:
Okay. Did anyone go with, now did you have anyone with you when you called him?
[01:37:48] Speaker 01:
Yes.
[01:37:48] Speaker 24:
Who was with you when you called him?
[01:37:51] Speaker 01:
The first time I called Jeff Chod was with me. Who is Jeff Chod? At the time he was the head of our Washington DC office.
[01:38:03] Speaker 24:
And you said you called from your cell phone. About what time did you call Mr. Walsh that morning, January 4th?
[01:38:11] Speaker 01:
Between 10 and 11.
[01:38:12] Speaker 24:
Okay. And did you connect with him?
[01:38:15] Speaker 01:
Yes.
[01:38:16] Speaker 24:
All right. Now I want to ask you about that conversation. What did he tell you in that conversation about Anna Walsh being missing?
[01:38:27] Speaker 01:
So I called, I introduced myself, I let him know who I was. Um, and I just said, how, you know, I understand you're looking for Ana, like how can, how can we help?
[01:38:37] Speaker 24:
Okay. And what did he tell you?
[01:38:39] Speaker 01:
He said, so I talked to him multiple times that day. So I believe in our first conversation, he stated, um, he hasn't seen Ana since the first for New Year's Day. And he was looking for her and wanted to see if any of us had heard from her. And he specifically said, we have only gone 24 hours or more without seeing each other once. And the last time she was I'm paraphrasing, but annoyed with me for looking for her too soon, essentially.
[01:39:29] Speaker 24:
Now, he said he was looking for her. Did he say why he was looking for her in Washington?
[01:39:35] Speaker 01:
Yes. He had said that there was a building emergency that she was called back for.
[01:39:44] Speaker 24:
Were there any building emergencies in Washington DC for the properties that Anna was managing at this point in time in January of 2023?
[01:39:55] Speaker 01:
January of 2020, that date?
[01:39:57] Speaker 24:
Well, between January 1st and January 4th of 2023.
[01:40:02] Speaker 01:
I can confirm on January 1st there was not.
[01:40:05] Speaker 24:
Okay.
[01:40:06] Speaker 01:
I'm not sure about second, third, fourth.
[01:40:08] Speaker 24:
So, but there was nothing, there were no emergencies on January 1st? Correct. Okay. Now, you're having this conversation with him. Do you offer to do anything during this conversation to help?
[01:40:22] Speaker 01:
Yes.
[01:40:22] Speaker 24:
What did you offer?
[01:40:24] Speaker 01:
I had stated, you know, Ana had shared with me where she lives and it's not too far from my home. I'm happy to go by and just check to make sure she hasn't fallen.
[01:40:37] Speaker 24:
Now, what was his demeanor like during this first conversation?
[01:40:41] Speaker 01:
He was polite and calm and nice.
[01:40:45] Speaker 24:
And how long was the conversation?
[01:40:48] Speaker 01:
A few minutes.
[01:40:50] Speaker 24:
And after the conversation was over and you had made this offer, what did you do?
[01:40:56] Speaker 01:
A co-worker, the one who originally told me about the phone call from the crossing team, offered to drive up with me to the house. And so we did that.
[01:41:09] Speaker 24:
During the conversation with Mr. Walsh, this first one, Did you ask him anything about Ana's mental health? I did. And what did you ask?
[01:41:19] Speaker 01:
I asked if she had any mental health issues.
[01:41:22] Speaker 24:
And what did he say?
[01:41:23] Speaker 01:
He said, no, we just had a lovely holiday New Year's with friends.
[01:41:31] Speaker 24:
So I take it at this point in time, you and the coworker went to Ana's home? Correct. And about what time do you think you got to Ana's home?
[01:41:43] Speaker 01:
Between 1030 and 1130.
[01:41:44] Speaker 24:
OK. And again, it's your memory that's controlling. So now, when you got to Ms. Walsh's home, what did it look like from the outside? What observations did you make?
[01:42:00] Speaker 01:
Sure. It's a town home. Yes. there were steps up to the front entrance, and so if you walk up the steps and you look on the left-hand side, there was an espresso box that was out, and it was wet.
[01:42:21] Speaker 24:
Okay. So there was a wet espresso box, and had it rained recently, what would have affected, what was the issue of the wet espresso box?
[01:42:33] Speaker 01:
On Monday and Tuesday it had rained, but on Wednesday it had not. So that led me to believe Anna had not been out of her home that day or before.
[01:42:46] Speaker 24:
I'm sorry I interrupted you. So you see this. Do you have any further conversations with Mr. Walsh at this point in time?
[01:42:54] Speaker 01:
Yes. So I notified him about the box. I saw a Google camera, like a doorbell camera or just a camera. And I asked him if he had access to it to check the records.
[01:43:10] Speaker 24:
Did he have any access to it?
[01:43:12] Speaker 01:
He said Ana is the tech one in the family. He does not handle that stuff.
[01:43:19] Speaker 24:
And did you ask him about how to try and get inside the house?
[01:43:26] Speaker 01:
So I remember I believe I turned the doorknob and I told him it was locked. And I looked in the window because there's a glass panel.
[01:43:36] Speaker 24:
Yes.
[01:43:37] Speaker 01:
And just to see if it looked like anything was broken into. And it didn't. The house was pretty immaculate. OK. And so I walked down the steps and there was a garage there and he said, I have the garage code if you'd like to, if you can check.
[01:43:54] Speaker 24:
So were you able to get into the garage with the code?
[01:43:56] Speaker 01:
Yes.
[01:43:58] Speaker 24:
What did the garage look like?
[01:44:00] Speaker 01:
The garage was pretty clean as well. There were a few boxes and a painting.
[01:44:07] Speaker 24:
And was there a car in there at this point? No. Besides the boxes, did you see anything as far as seats or anything like that?
[01:44:16] Speaker 01:
Yeah, so I saw either a car seat or a stroller. I don't remember right now.
[01:44:33] Speaker 24:
Inside the garage, besides these objects, did you see anything out of order, anything broken or anything like that?
[01:44:38] Speaker 01:
No.
[01:44:40] Speaker 24:
And was there any buddy in the garage when you got there?
[01:44:44] Speaker 01:
Was there anyone in the garage?
[01:44:45] Speaker 24:
Yeah, is there any person in the garage?
[01:44:48] Speaker 01:
No.
[01:44:49] Speaker 24:
And now we're going to compete with the heap. So I'm going to ask if you can keep your voice up. All right. So were you able to get inside the house?
[01:44:58] Speaker 01:
No.
[01:44:58] Speaker 24:
Okay. Why couldn't you get inside the house from the garage?
[01:45:01] Speaker 01:
I just turned the doorknob to see if that was unlocked and it was in fact locked.
[01:45:07] Speaker 24:
So now you can't get inside the house. Do you have any further conversations with Mr. Walsh? Yes. Okay. And by the way, how are you calling him? My cell phone. Okay. And so now I want to ask you about the third conversation. Okay. When did this occur?
[01:45:30] Speaker 01:
Either at my home, I believe was the third conversation.
[01:45:35] Speaker 24:
Okay. And so what happened between not getting into the house to the third conversation?
[01:45:43] Speaker 01:
So on my way up to the house, I had spoken with our global head of security.
[01:45:52] Speaker 24:
Yes.
[01:45:53] Speaker 01:
Who's that? Hugh Dunleavy. Okay.
[01:45:58] Speaker 24:
I'm going to ask you not to tell us what you and Mr. Dunleavy talked about, but that you had a conversation with Mr. Dunleavy.
[01:46:04] Speaker 01:
Correct.
[01:46:05] Speaker 24:
Okay. After the conversation with Mr. Dunleavy, what did you do?
[01:46:08] Speaker 01:
I conferenced him into our call with Brian.
[01:46:11] Speaker 24:
Okay. So now I want to ask you about that call. So you conferenced Mr. Dunleavy into a call with Brian? Correct. So you'd already called Brian before getting Mr. Dunleavy on the call?
[01:46:25] Speaker 01:
Yeah, I believe that was the second call, though.
[01:46:27] Speaker 24:
OK, the second call. So let me ask you about that second call, because I might have jumped ahead. With this conversation with Mr. Walsh, what was his demeanor like in the second conversation?
[01:46:41] Speaker 01:
So when Hugh joined?
[01:46:43] Speaker 24:
Prior to Mr. Dunleavy joining.
[01:46:45] Speaker 01:
Oh, he was polite and calm and nice.
[01:46:49] Speaker 24:
And what did you tell Mr. Walsh about bringing Mr. Dunleavy into this conversation?
[01:46:54] Speaker 01:
I had said, Hugh is ex-secret service and you'll be in great hands.
[01:47:04] Speaker 24:
And what was his demeanor like at that point in time of the conversation?
[01:47:10] Speaker 01:
He sounded like he was crying and said he needed a minute and, you know, very abruptly returned and said, okay.
[01:47:24] Speaker 24:
At this point after that moment, what did you do as far as trying to conference in Mr. Dunleavy?
[01:47:31] Speaker 01:
He was on the phone.
[01:47:32] Speaker 24:
OK. And so when Mr. Walsh was upset, was Mr. Dunleavy already on the call, or was it before he was on the call?
[01:47:42] Speaker 01:
It was when he was on the call.
[01:47:43] Speaker 24:
OK. So that's when Mr. Walsh became upset? Correct. Just so I have the timeline right? Correct. OK. What happened after Mr. Walsh composed himself in the conversation?
[01:48:02] Speaker 01:
I believe Hugh and I started to ask him a series of questions.
[01:48:06] Speaker 24:
Okay. Did you ask him anything about Ana's car?
[01:48:09] Speaker 01:
Yes.
[01:48:10] Speaker 24:
What did he tell you about Ana's car?
[01:48:11] Speaker 01:
We asked the make and the model and the color. He told us it was a gray Volkswagen Taos. We asked about the license plate. He did not know the license plate number. We asked if she had an easy pass. I don't recall what he said.
[01:48:32] Speaker 24:
Did you ask him anything about the house itself?
[01:48:34] Speaker 01:
I did. We asked him if he was on the deed or the mortgage. So if we call the police, if he would be able to grant permission to let someone in. And I believe he said he didn't know if he was on... He did not know if he was on the deed, but believed Anna was on the mortgage, I think.
[01:49:11] Speaker 24:
Okay. And so, did you ask him anything about how Anna traveled to DC?
[01:49:17] Speaker 01:
I did. What did he say? So I had asked him myself without Hugh on our first conversation. Yes. When he told me that she had to leave for an emergency and he told me she told him she was flying to DC. And I had said un-American and he said American or jet blue. I'm not sure which one.
[01:49:43] Speaker 24:
During this conversation with you, Mr. Dunleavy and Mr. Walsh, what did you ask him about calling hospitals?
[01:49:52] Speaker 01:
So back to the second conversation, Hugh and I again asked him how Anna typically came to DC. And at that point, he said he didn't know if she drove, trained, flew. and I believe he said he thought she flew. Then, proceeding to ask questions, we asked if he has called any hospitals. and I let him know that I had asked someone in our DC office to call the local hospitals in DC, and she had called Sibley Suburban and GW, George Washington, and Anna was not there and recommended he do the same in Boston.
[01:50:51] Speaker 24:
And what did Mr. Dunleavy say to him? What was the conversation of calling the police?
[01:51:00] Speaker 01:
Towards the end of the conversation, when we were going through what friends he may have reached out to, suggesting to call hospitals, Hugh had stated to hang up and call the police immediately.
[01:51:25] Speaker 24:
When was the next conversation with Mr. Walsh? Was this at your home? Correct. Okay. So this conversation with Mr. Dunleavy, this is part of conversation two. Correct. Okay. So where did conversation three take place for you?
[01:51:41] Speaker 01:
My dining room table.
[01:51:42] Speaker 24:
Why did you go to your dining room table from the Walsh residence?
[01:51:44] Speaker 01:
Sure. So after we hung up, I actually went to Starbucks first and called Hugh to say should I... No, I'm not going to ask you what you said with Mr. Dunleavy.
[01:52:01] Speaker 24:
I apologize. Right. What I want to ask is more or less like your movements and where you went. So you went to Starbucks and you had a conversation with Mr. Dunleavy? Correct. Okay. Now, after having your conversation with Mr. Dunleavy, where did you go next?
[01:52:16] Speaker 01:
My home.
[01:52:16] Speaker 24:
Okay. Did anyone go with you to your home?
[01:52:18] Speaker 01:
My coworker that drove me.
[01:52:20] Speaker 24:
OK. So then you're at your home. When is it? How long are you at home before you have your third conversation with Mr. Walsh?
[01:52:29] Speaker 01:
So it was close to 1 PM.
[01:52:32] Speaker 24:
OK. And what was the subject of this conversation?
[01:52:34] Speaker 01:
Can you tell us about it? Yes. I can't recall. I know I spoke four times to him. I can't recall three or four if I called him or he called me or if Hugh had asked me to call him.
[01:52:55] Speaker 24:
Did he mention anything about filing a police report?
[01:52:59] Speaker 01:
Yes.
[01:53:00] Speaker 24:
What did he say?
[01:53:01] Speaker 01:
So, Brian called me to let me know that he had just hung up with the police and they were filing a police report.
[01:53:15] Speaker 24:
And did he say anything about calling on his friends or acquaintances?
[01:53:18] Speaker 01:
Yes.
[01:53:18] Speaker 24:
What did he say?
[01:53:20] Speaker 01:
He mentioned he called someone named Alyssa and someone named Abdullah or Abdullah.
[01:53:29] Speaker 24:
Okay. What was his demeanor like in this phone call?
[01:53:33] Speaker 01:
Polite, calm, the same.
[01:53:36] Speaker 24:
The same. What did he mention about private investigators?
[01:53:40] Speaker 01:
At the end of the conversation, he had said his mother wanted to hire a private investigator.
[01:53:47] Speaker 24:
And then, now, did you have a fourth phone call with him? I did. And about what time do you think the fourth phone call was?
[01:54:06] Speaker 01:
I don't recall.
[01:54:07] Speaker 24:
That's OK. And do you have any memory of the fourth phone call?
[01:54:15] Speaker 01:
Yes.
[01:54:17] Speaker 24:
What's your memory of the fourth phone call?
[01:54:28] Speaker 01:
Give me a second.
[01:54:29] Speaker 26:
It's OK.
[01:54:41] Speaker 01:
At some point, I know I was to text him Hugh's phone number. OK. I know we were talking about the hospitals, friends, private investigator. To be honest, I don't know if the private investigator was on the fourth call or the third, so we might have blended. Yeah.
[01:55:08] Speaker 24:
Understandable. It's been three years. Ma'am, in addition to having phone calls, did you have any other ways of communicating with the person you thought to be Brian Walsh that day?
[01:55:18] Speaker 01:
There were text messages.
[01:55:19] Speaker 24:
There were text messages. Your Honor, may I approach with exhibit 163? You may. Ma'am, can you take a look at exhibit 163? It's two-page, it's front and back.
[01:56:10] Speaker 14:
No.
[01:56:13] Speaker 24:
Do those appear to be your text messages between you and the number that you thought to be Brian Walsh's? Yes. If you could just say that into the microphone. Yes.
[01:56:20] Speaker 01:
OK.
[01:56:21] Speaker 24:
So when you were texting him and he was texting you, there was a reference to, in the last text, Are there Tishman-inspired personnel at the Mazaville? Thanks. Did you respond to that text?
[01:56:42] Speaker 01:
I did not.
[01:56:44] Speaker 24:
So that was the last communication you had with Mr. Walsh?
[01:56:47] Speaker 01:
Correct.
[01:56:49] Speaker 24:
Now, were there any further phone calls after that?
[01:56:56] Speaker 01:
After the January 5th text message? No.
[01:56:59] Speaker 24:
Okay. Exactly. So there's no further communication with Mr. Walsh after the January 5th text message?
[01:57:04] Speaker 01:
Correct.
[01:57:08] Speaker 24:
Had you ever talked to Anna Walsh about having her children in D-SIT?
[01:57:14] Speaker 01:
Yes.
[01:57:14] Speaker 24:
What did she tell you about having her children in D-SIT?
[01:57:19] Speaker 01:
We talked a few times about it. I'd say the first time was when she was taking the offer and moving. We would talk about different areas and schools. And she had said that she would probably bring them down, I think the first time was in the summer, which made sense when they get out of school.
[01:57:44] Speaker 24:
And was there a subsequent conversation about the children coming down after the summer?
[01:57:47] Speaker 01:
Yeah, so I believe in the summer or at an event we had chatted and she had mentioned to me that they'd be coming down in September.
[01:57:58] Speaker 24:
And were there any further conversations after September about the children moving down to D.C.?
[01:58:03] Speaker 01:
No.
[01:58:04] Speaker 24:
Okay. Now, after seeing Anna Walsh at the women's event for Tishman Spire in December, have you seen Anna Walsh since?
[01:58:15] Speaker 01:
No.
[01:58:16] Speaker 24:
Nothing further, Your Honor.
[01:58:25] UNKNOWN:
Last exam.
[01:58:30] Speaker 01:
Morning.
[01:58:33] Speaker 06:
Morning.
[01:58:45] Speaker 26:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but basically what you do with fishermen's fires in Cuban resources.
[01:58:54] Speaker 01:
Yes.
[01:58:54] Speaker 26:
And what was it I told the jury?
[01:58:57] Speaker 01:
Managing director.
[01:59:00] Speaker 10:
Could I ask you to speak up?
[01:59:01] Speaker 01:
Managing director.
[01:59:02] Speaker 10:
Attorney Tipton, can I ask you to speak up? Certainly. Why don't I just move back here?
[01:59:09] Speaker 27:
I apologize, Judge. And as part of your role as the managing director of human resources, you are responsible for, or your office is, for keeping track of sick days and things like that of your employees.
[01:59:33] Speaker 01:
We have systems that we use to keep track of days for our employees.
[01:59:39] Speaker 27:
And one of the items of information that you provided to investigators in this case was Anna Walsh's information regarding six days she had taken, correct?
[01:59:56] Speaker 01:
A document I provided, is that what you're asking?
[01:59:59] UNKNOWN:
Yes.
[02:00:00] Speaker 01:
Yes.
[02:00:01] Speaker 27:
And that document only goes up to December 7th, doesn't it? It doesn't extend into the full month of December, does it?
[02:00:11] Speaker 01:
I don't recall.
[02:00:12] Speaker 27:
And do you recall that those that Anna Walsh took sick days beginning sometime in December 1st and her reason for it was attending to her mother's surgery. Do you remember that?
[02:00:28] Speaker 01:
I do not recall if they were sick days or vacation days.
[02:00:32] Speaker 27:
Okay. In any event, did she ever inform you that she was going to go to Dublin? No. And so, as far as you know, in all the records you have regarding Anna Walsh, there's nothing to indicate that she ever went to Dublin. As far as you sit here today?
[02:00:49] Speaker 01:
No.
[02:00:51] Speaker 27:
Okay. And you mentioned the crossing a few times in your testimony. Can you just tell the jury once again, what is the crossing when you refer to that?
[02:01:02] Speaker 01:
The crossing is a residential apartment building that we own in Washington D.C. And how many units does it have?
[02:01:12] Speaker 27:
Approximately.
[02:01:14] Speaker 01:
800.
[02:01:15] Speaker 27:
OK. And is it fair to say that the crossing is considered to be pretty much kind of a high-end residence in the DC area?
[02:01:27] Speaker 01:
It's your standard modern apartment building with amenities and a pool, rooftop pool. If that is high-end, yes. OK. All right.
[02:01:38] Speaker 27:
And it's fair to say that you, if I heard you right, Were your offices at the crossing? No. But you mentioned that you were at the crossing at various times.
[02:01:51] Speaker 01:
I did not mention that I was at the crossing various times. Then I misunderstood you. I have been to the crossing. Yes.
[02:01:59] Speaker 27:
OK. And as part of your role as human resource and the managing director, you would be aware of the fact that if there were in fact problems at various buildings, wouldn't you?
[02:02:10] Speaker 01:
Not necessarily.
[02:02:11] Speaker 27:
Are you aware, if I may? When it comes to human resources, is it fair to say that if there's a problem with an employee's performance, Human resources would hear about it and deal with it. Correct. And if, for instance, the tenants of a particular property that was managed by Tishman Spire were complaining about something at the properties and they were complaining about some of the management that was occurring at the properties, you'd hear about it and you would be involved in trying to deal with whatever problem was being reported.
[02:03:06] Speaker 01:
human resources team would be involved? Me specifically, not a guarantee.
[02:03:14] Speaker 27:
Okay, and I appreciate that answer. You're aware of the fact that on or around October of 2022, there was a Legionnaire Health issue that was raised by the Department of Health for the District of Columbia at the crossing.
[02:03:36] Speaker 01:
I had heard that there was an issue with Legionnaires.
[02:03:39] Speaker 27:
Okay. And in fact, eventually, at the crossing, on or around October, November, and leading into December of 2022, the Department of Health of DC required that notices be placed at the crossing informing the tenants that there had been two cases of Legionnaires' disease associated with the crossing.
[02:04:08] Speaker 01:
Are you, what's the question?
[02:04:10] Speaker 27:
You're aware of that, aren't you? I am not. Okay. Are you aware of the fact that, are you aware of the fact that Anna Walsh was dealing with the Department of Health of DC dealing with this Legionnaires issue that had been detected at the crossing?
[02:04:31] Speaker 01:
I am aware that as part of Ana's role, she would interact if this were an issue. I do not specifically know if she emailed, if she spoke to someone, if others were involved. Yes.
[02:04:52] Speaker 27:
Okay. May I approach, Your Honor?
[02:04:54] Speaker 11:
You may.
[02:05:00] Speaker 27:
I'm just going to show you what's been marked for IDK. OK. And do not read, but I'm just asking for you to look at it and tell us if you've ever seen it.
[02:05:14] Speaker 01:
So you don't want me to read it out loud, but I can read it to myself.
[02:05:18] Speaker 27:
Yes.
[02:05:19] Speaker 01:
OK. Is there something you want me to look for?
[02:05:49] Speaker 27:
I'm going to ask you if you've had time to review it. And I'm going to ask you details. I'm just going to ask you one simple question.
[02:05:56] Speaker 01:
Sure.
[02:05:58] Speaker 27:
Have you ever seen that letter before?
[02:05:59] Speaker 01:
I'm not sure.
[02:06:01] Speaker 27:
You're not sure. You could have, but you might not remember it.
[02:06:04] Speaker 01:
Correct.
[02:06:06] Speaker 27:
Yeah. And then are you aware that that is posted on, yes or no, posted on the Fisherman's Buyer website?
[02:06:14] Speaker 01:
No.
[02:06:15] Speaker 27:
Are you aware of any tenant association meetings where they complained about the performance of Anna Walsh in conjunction with the information in that letter?
[02:06:39] Speaker 01:
I am aware that there were tenant association meetings. I am not aware that they complained specifically about Anna.
[02:06:47] Speaker 27:
Okay. You are aware though, if I understanding your answer, that the tenants were complaining. You're just not sure if they were complaining about Anna Walsh.
[02:06:58] Speaker 01:
There were quite a few complaints from the tenants for a variety of issues.
[02:07:06] Speaker 27:
Dealing with the management of the crossing location.
[02:07:10] Speaker 01:
Various things that happened at crossing.
[02:07:13] Speaker 27:
Does that include An issue that arose up, that arose in the, around the middle part of 2022 where the FBI became involved in the arrest of two residents living at the crossing.
[02:07:38] Speaker 01:
What is the question?
[02:07:39] Speaker 10:
I see a council at the side of the bench.
[02:08:34] Speaker 12:
you
[02:09:10] Speaker 27:
So just yes or no, if you can. Are you aware of the FBI becoming involved, and without going into details about it, the FBI being involved in some arrest of two individuals who lived at the crossing? Yes. OK. And once again, that occurred when Anna Walsh was assigned to manage the crossing.
[02:09:32] Speaker 01:
It occurred in April. I do not remember if Anna was physically there when it happened or if she came within a week or two of that, but she was working on that situation with us. Yes.
[02:09:51] Speaker 27:
Now, there are certain benefits. employee benefits that Tishman Meyer Spire provides to his employees, correct?
[02:09:59] Speaker 01:
Correct.
[02:09:59] Speaker 27:
And we already know that you provided life insurance at two times their base salary, correct?
[02:10:06] Speaker 01:
Correct.
[02:10:07] Speaker 27:
And the beneficiary on this particular policy involved Mr. Walsh and the three boys, correct? Correct. Now, there's other benefits that accrue to the employees like Anna Walsh and its health benefits, correct? Health insurance? Correct. And in fact, isn't it true that Tishman Spire also offers to some of its employees a discounted rental rate at some of your properties if they choose to live there? They get a little bit of a discount.
[02:10:41] Speaker 01:
Not a hundred percent accurate. Okay, tell us what I'm you explain it there at the crossing and perhaps Actually, I don't know of the city's rules at the crossing.
[02:10:56] Speaker 27:
Yes, there was discount provided to two employees, I believe Okay, so a discount provided if they chose to reside at the crossing correct, okay and There's also, with regards to benefits, and in your capacity as the managing director of human resource, that in fact there are, you have to kind of set forth what you want as benefits for the next year, so to speak. And that usually occurs around November of the preceding year. Is that fair to say? Open enrollment. Open enrollment. Yes. OK. And your policies state that if there is a qualifying change in status, then some of the things like the benefits that your employees receive, like life insurance or anything, something like that, that they can then change some of their benefits. For instance, they could change their beneficiary, they could change their health insurance, who gets health insurance, correct? They can change it.
[02:12:08] Speaker 01:
You're referring to during open enrollment?
[02:12:11] Speaker 27:
I'm actually, I'm actually, yes. Well, let's start with that. In open enrollment, yes. I'm asking you that.
[02:12:18] Speaker 01:
During open enrollment, you can make changes to your medical, dental, vision plan. Life insurance and long-term disability are typically, long-term disability is a one-time deal typically when you are hired. There are occasions in certain years where we may work with the carriers to allow employees to have another open enrollment opportunity. I do not recall if that happened on his tenure with us. Life insurance is given to everyone upon hire. There is an opportunity to purchase supplemental life insurance. That is typically upon hire. And then there are some similarly we may do an open enrollment for it. And depending on your election amount, it may be automatic or you may be required to do additional questionnaire. And then there are other benefits such as transit or different things along those lines as well.
[02:13:26] Speaker 27:
Okay, now aside from open enrollment in that particular area, if someone needs to change something, later on, they could only change it if there was a qualifying change in status event.
[02:13:40] Speaker 01:
Qualifying life event.
[02:13:42] Speaker 27:
Okay. And one of those events includes divorce. Correct. And it's fair to say that Anna Walsh never brought up, raised, discussed with human resources anything about what would happen if she got a divorce or anything of the sort.
[02:14:02] Speaker 10:
Sustained as to form.
[02:14:08] Speaker 27:
To the best of your knowledge, Anna Walsh never came to human resources and discussed anything with regards to a divorce and her benefits that she received from Tishman Meyer, Spyer, I'm sorry.
[02:14:24] Speaker 11:
Sustained.
[02:14:32] Speaker 27:
It's fair to say that Anna Walsh worked long hours.
[02:14:39] Speaker 01:
I don't know.
[02:14:40] Speaker 27:
You don't know?
[02:14:41] Speaker 01:
Okay. At times, we're not hourly, not everybody is hourly employees. Anna was not an hourly employee. At times, she could stay late or come early.
[02:14:52] Speaker 27:
All right. And she would just be required to manage those properties. And sometimes she had to work long hours, I suppose, to manage those properties and deal with the problems with the properties.
[02:15:02] Speaker 01:
She had a team on site to support. But there are occasions where I'm sure she stayed later or came early.
[02:15:16] Speaker 27:
Was the first time you ever had a conversation that you recall with Mr. Brian Walsh, was that on January 4th? Yes. You had never talked to him before? Correct. And to the best of your knowledge, Brian Walsh had never called Human Resources and asked about what benefits he had or asked to change the benefits that Anna Walsh had bidded. Correct. You mentioned a name of Jeff Chod. I probably said that last name wrong.
[02:16:02] Speaker 01:
Chod.
[02:16:02] Speaker 27:
Okay. What is his role at Tishman Spire?
[02:16:06] Speaker 01:
He is no longer with the company.
[02:16:08] Speaker 27:
What was his role in 2022?
[02:16:09] Speaker 01:
He was the head of our Washington DC region.
[02:16:13] Speaker 27:
And did he in fact work with or supervise Anna Walsh? Yes. Would he be somebody that somebody might contact if they wanted to get in touch with Anna Walsh?
[02:16:24] Speaker 01:
Not necessarily.
[02:16:27] Speaker 27:
But that would be somebody that worked with her and supervised her, correct?
[02:16:32] Speaker 01:
Yes.
[02:16:34] Speaker 27:
And to the best of your knowledge, do you know if Brian Walsh ever reached out and tried to contact Jeff Chott?
[02:16:41] Speaker 01:
I do not, no.
[02:16:47] Speaker 27:
To the best of your knowledge, Let me ask it a different way. With human resources and your team, were they also involved in assessing some employee's performance so they would be entitled to receive a bonus based on their performance?
[02:17:30] Speaker 01:
You're asking if the HR team determines bonuses.
[02:17:36] Speaker 27:
Well, let's ask it that way then. You can answer that yes or no.
[02:17:39] Speaker 01:
Our team is part of the process. Okay.
[02:17:44] Speaker 27:
Yes, that's fair. And it's a better way of putting it. So let me ask you this. So human resources would it would be a process to evaluate someone's performance to make a determination of whether they got a bonus during a year.
[02:18:02] Speaker 01:
Yes, there's a formal process.
[02:18:04] Speaker 27:
And so complaints about poor performance would have a negative impact, or a possible negative impact, on someone receiving a bonus. It could. It could. And it would depend on what the complaint was and what everybody on this team considered and discussed, correct?
[02:18:26] Speaker 01:
Everybody on the HR team? Yes. Considered and discussed. It's a very broad statement. So are we focused on ANA or just our company?
[02:18:36] Speaker 27:
Your company policy in general. I'm not focused on ANA right now.
[02:18:40] Speaker 01:
Okay. Then what was the question again?
[02:18:43] Speaker 27:
That there's a team put together at Tishman Spire and part of their role is to evaluate whether someone's performance warrants them getting a bonus in salary for a particular pay period?
[02:18:59] Speaker 01:
There are multiple people involved.
[02:19:01] Speaker 27:
Sure. Yes. And so they evaluate the performance?
[02:19:06] Speaker 01:
Compensation.
[02:19:07] Speaker 27:
Okay. And Anna Walsh being an employee would also have her performance evaluated to determine if she would receive a bonus? Yes.
[02:19:19] Speaker 26:
Can I just have a second? Yes. Thank you very much.
[02:19:29] Speaker 10:
Any redirect?
[02:19:31] Speaker 24:
The Friday after Thanksgiving, is that a holiday for Tishman's Buyer?
[02:19:40] Speaker 01:
It is a floating holiday, which means typically the corporate office is closed and those employees are not required to work, but there are people in property management and some hourly roles that may be required pending the building leases, essentially.
[02:19:59] Speaker 24:
Could Ana observe that as a floating holiday?
[02:20:03] Speaker 01:
Say that again?
[02:20:04] Speaker 24:
Could Ana Walsh observe the Friday after Thanksgiving as a floating holiday?
[02:20:08] Speaker 01:
She could. She could.
[02:20:11] Speaker 24:
Yeah. Do you know if Anna Walsh received bonuses as a result of her compensation at Tishman's Buyer? She did. And what type of employee was Anna Walsh?
[02:20:27] Speaker 01:
She received, I mean, she was a good employee. She was on time or early. Okay.
[02:20:38] Speaker 24:
And these various complaints from the crossing, did that have any impact on Ana's compensation?
[02:20:46] Speaker 01:
From the tenants at the crossing? Yes. No.
[02:20:48] Speaker 24:
What about the FBI raid that occurred within weeks of her starting? Did that have any effects on her? Her perception as a good employee at Titianspire?
[02:20:58] Speaker 01:
Ana had nothing to do with the FBI raid.
[02:21:02] Speaker 24:
Nothing further, Your Honor.
[02:21:04] Speaker 10:
Any requests? The witness may step down. Thank you. Almost we call it's next. Oh, I know three. Be back in about 20 to 30 minutes.
[02:22:23] Speaker 08:
Does anyone need anything?
[02:22:26] Speaker 24:
Alright, now you're on.
[02:22:57] UNKNOWN:
Thank you. you you Thank you. Thank you. you Thank you. you Thank you. you you
[02:43:29] Speaker 12:
.
[02:43:46] UNKNOWN:
. you
[02:46:25] Speaker 12:
Thank you.
[02:47:43] UNKNOWN:
Thank you. So, thank you very much.
[02:49:10] Speaker 00:
You are unmuted.
[02:49:38] Speaker 08:
You may be seated.
[02:50:15] Speaker 12:
. .
[02:51:09] Speaker 10:
Yes.
[02:51:55] Speaker 11:
Namaste.
[02:51:56] Speaker 24:
Thank you, Your Honor. Commence the brief call.
[02:52:19] Speaker 28:
Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony that you give in the cause now and here, and to give the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Thank you. Thank you.
[02:52:26] Speaker 12:
So you can proceed.
[02:52:32] Speaker 11:
Thank you. You may proceed.
[02:52:34] Speaker 26:
Thank you. Sir, did you say your name for the record?
[02:52:36] Speaker 23:
My name is Davis Schooled, spelled D-A-V-I-S, last name G-O-U-L-D. And you previously testified on this record, didn't you? Yes, I did.
[02:52:49] Speaker 24:
You stated you went to what crime lab to put the evidence into the limb system.
[02:52:54] Speaker 23:
I stated I went to the Danvers State Police Crime Laboratory.
[02:52:58] Speaker 24:
And subsequently you had the opportunity to reflect on that. What crime lab did you go to?
[02:53:02] Speaker 23:
The Sudbury location. The Danvers location is closest to Peabody. That's the lab I typically respond to after I go to scenes. Sudbury houses larger evidence storage and drying cabinets. So upon reflection, I went to that location in order to submit the quantity of evidence I had for drying.
[02:53:23] Speaker 24:
So speaking of that, I want to ask you your honorary approach. Yes. Thank you. I'm putting a piece of parchment paper on the witness bench and I'm showing you what was marked as Exhibit 131. I'm going to ask you to put on some gloves. Sir, can you state what Exhibit 131 says on the exterior of the bag?
[02:53:49] Speaker 23:
Yes, it says, black jacket with pair of black socks and bracelet from bag number one.
[02:53:55] Speaker 24:
All right. Now, when you were in court the other day and testifying, you didn't pull the black jacket out upon my request. Isn't that fair to say?
[02:54:01] Speaker 23:
That's correct.
[02:54:01] Speaker 24:
All right. that bag, can you open it up and pull out the black jacket?
[02:54:06] Speaker 23:
Yes.
[02:54:49] Speaker 24:
What was done with the exhibit 131, sir?
[02:54:54] Speaker 23:
This item was placed into a drying cabinet in order to dry at the Sudbury crime laboratory.
[02:54:59] Speaker 24:
What about the socks and the bracelet?
[02:55:01] Speaker 23:
Those were also placed into a drying cabinet in order to dry.
[02:55:05] Speaker 24:
What was done with the socks and the bracelet that were originally in the bag with the jacket?
[02:55:10] Speaker 23:
After a period of a few days in order for the items to dry, the evidence control unit repackaged those items that were now dry into their own individual brown paper bags.
[02:55:20] Speaker 24:
All right. I'm showing you now, sir, what was marked as exhibit 134, brown paper bag containing bracelet. Can you look inside that, sir?
[02:55:29] Speaker 23:
Yes. Yes, there is.
[02:55:48] Speaker 24:
Now, what did you do to confirm that that was the bracelet that was from the jacket pocket of exhibit 131?
[02:55:55] Speaker 23:
The chain of custody in our laboratory information management system, the LIMS program, shows the history of the item going into the drying cabinet and then being taken out after drying several days later and packaged into its individual brown paper bag by the evidence control unit. Correct, that's standard lab policy to then separate the individual items after they're dry.
[02:56:21] Speaker 24:
And did you do anything as far as looking at additional photographs to confirm it?
[02:56:24] Speaker 23:
I did, yes. What did you do? I looked at the lab photographs from the bench analysis that was done on the large bag labeled black jacket, socks, and bracelet, and the only item at the time of analysis was the black jacket inside of the bag.
[02:56:43] Speaker 24:
I'm handing you another brown paper rag, and I'm going to ask you to recognize the item inside.
[02:56:52] Speaker 23:
Yes, I do.
[02:56:53] Speaker 24:
Were those the black socks found by the black jacket that were put into the initial bag you packaged in Peabody that night?
[02:57:00] Speaker 23:
Yes, they are.
[02:57:01] Speaker 24:
And what were done with those socks?
[02:57:03] Speaker 23:
Those socks were also placed into a drying cabinet, just like the other two items.
[02:57:07] Speaker 24:
The Commonwealth would seek to hand the bag with the black socks. Any objection?
[02:57:13] Speaker 10:
Lock Socks are now in evidence as exhibit 191. Thank you. Any? Cross. The witness may step down.
[02:57:33] Speaker 23:
Thank you, Your Honor.
[02:57:47] Speaker 10:
Commonwealth may call its next witness.
[02:57:50] Speaker 03:
The Commonwealth would call Hugh Dunleavy.
[02:58:14] Speaker 28:
Good morning.
[02:58:40] Speaker 03:
Could you please state your name and spell your last name?
[02:58:43] Speaker 06:
Sure. Hugh, middle initial G, Dunleavy, D-U-N-L-E-A-V-Y.
[02:58:51] Speaker 03:
And where were you working in January of 2023? Tishman Spire. And what was your title at Tishman Spire?
[02:59:00] Speaker 06:
I'm the Chief Security Officer at Tishman Spire.
[02:59:03] Speaker 03:
And what is your current title?
[02:59:05] Speaker 06:
Chief Security Officer.
[02:59:07] Speaker 03:
And what are your responsibilities?
[02:59:10] Speaker 06:
Physical security for the most part. I do a bit of executive protection, crisis management, and so forth.
[02:59:19] Speaker 03:
And what have your previous work experience been to obtain the position that you have at Tishman Spire?
[02:59:26] Speaker 06:
Prior to working at Tishman Spire, I was a Secret Service agent.
[02:59:29] Speaker 03:
And how long were you a Secret Service agent?
[02:59:32] Speaker 06:
From until 2014, 1993 until 2014.
[02:59:40] Speaker 03:
Um, and does Tishman Spire have real estate holdings in DC and did they in January of 2023? It does. And in your work for Tishman Spire, did you know Ana Walsh?
[02:59:53] Speaker 06:
I did.
[02:59:55] Speaker 03:
How did you know her?
[02:59:56] Speaker 06:
She was a coworker assigned to our DC region.
[03:00:01] Speaker 03:
And where did you sit in relation to Ana Walsh?
[03:00:04] Speaker 06:
It's an open workspace in our DC regional office. We were probably, our workstations were probably 10 feet apart from each other.
[03:00:13] Speaker 03:
And what were Ana's specific work projects?
[03:00:16] Speaker 06:
Ana was responsible for our residential properties, specifically in DC.
[03:00:24] Speaker 03:
And were there any specific properties that she was responsible for that you were aware of?
[03:00:29] Speaker 06:
D.C. Crossing was the major one in southeast D.C. There was another property under construction called Mazza Galleria, again under construction.
[03:00:41] Speaker 03:
And in your capacity as chief security officer, would you be apprised of security concerns for your buildings and employees?
[03:00:48] Speaker 06:
I would.
[03:00:49] Speaker 03:
And in your capacity as the chief of security for Tishman Spire, are you responsible for employee safety and security? I am. Would you be aware of threats on employees?
[03:01:02] Speaker 06:
I would, yes.
[03:01:04] Speaker 03:
And were you aware of any specific threats against Anna Walsh when she worked for you?
[03:01:11] Speaker 06:
No.
[03:01:14] Speaker 03:
What happened when you came to work on January 4th of 2023 in regard to Anna Walsh?
[03:01:21] Speaker 06:
Around mid morning, late morning, I started hearing rumblings of, hey, does anybody know where Anna is? We can't find Anna. Sort of looking for Anna Walsh.
[03:01:32] Speaker 03:
And as a result of not hearing or seeing Anna Walsh, what did you do?
[03:01:38] Speaker 06:
Sent Anna a quick health and welfare text message about 1057 in the morning.
[03:01:45] Speaker 03:
And how did you do that?
[03:01:47] Speaker 06:
Just a text from my phone to hers.
[03:01:51] Speaker 03:
And was that text received?
[03:01:55] Speaker 06:
I couldn't tell if it was received. It normally says delivered or read. In this instance, it did not.
[03:02:03] Speaker 03:
And as you were reaching out via text, were you aware of other people in your company doing things in relation to looking for Anna Walsh?
[03:02:13] Speaker 06:
It was, yes.
[03:02:16] Speaker 03:
And on that same day, at that same time, did you have an opportunity to speak with Brian Walsh?
[03:02:23] Speaker 06:
I did.
[03:02:24] Speaker 03:
And how did that conversation occur?
[03:02:26] Speaker 06:
I have a coworker. Her name is Ms. Teresa Marchese. She works as an executive in our human resources division. Ms. Marchese had been in contact with Mr. Walsh, and she conferenced me in on a call she had had with Mr. Walsh.
[03:02:43] Speaker 03:
Do you know what time that call was?
[03:02:45] Speaker 06:
Sometime after 1057, after the text, late morning.
[03:02:51] Speaker 03:
And so once you were on the phone, that conference call, what was initially said about you?
[03:03:00] Speaker 06:
Just introductions. It was mostly Teresa introducing me to Mr. Walsh on his husband, and Teresa introduced me to Mr. Walsh as the chief security officer. I believe she said either former law enforcement or former Secret Service.
[03:03:16] Speaker 03:
And what was Anna Walsh's husband's demeanor initially?
[03:03:21] Speaker 06:
Initially, very cordial. Hello, how can I help you? Very calm.
[03:03:27] Speaker 03:
And at some point, did that stay the same or change or something else?
[03:03:31] Speaker 06:
It did. Very quickly, when I started asking about Anna, his demeanor changed. He got very emotional, unintelligible to the point where I had to ask him to calm down so I could just understand what he was saying.
[03:03:46] Speaker 03:
And was he able to do that?
[03:03:48] Speaker 06:
He was, yes.
[03:03:50] Speaker 03:
And how long do you think he was unintelligible for?
[03:03:54] Speaker 06:
It was quick, 20 to 30 seconds at most. He was very, he was quickly able to reestablish his composure and regain a conversation.
[03:04:05] Speaker 03:
And could you please tell me what Mr. Walsh told you during that phone call?
[03:04:10] Speaker 06:
How did that phone call go? Um, it was again, very cordial. Um, his demeanor was good. Uh, he was, he regained his composure. And when I started asking, Hey, when was the last time you, uh, you saw Anna, what was her location? Uh, where's that effect?
[03:04:30] Speaker 03:
And what did he tell you about the last time he saw Anna?
[03:04:33] Speaker 06:
He indicated he had seen Anna sometime either late on the 31st or early on the 1st of January.
[03:04:41] Speaker 03:
And why did he say she had left?
[03:04:46] Speaker 06:
He indicated that there was a work emergency and that she had left the house en route back to our DC region.
[03:04:57] Speaker 03:
And what, if anything, did he tell you about the amount of time that he had not been in contact with her?
[03:05:04] Speaker 06:
I asked him very specifically when was the last time he spoke to his wife. He said, I noted that it was the 4th of January and the last time he'd seen his wife was on the 1st. So it was three days. Is that normal? He indicated it was not atypical for them to not speak for several days. But he was now calling work to find out where she was.
[03:05:29] Speaker 03:
And what, if anything, was discussed about the work emergency?
[03:05:33] Speaker 06:
Again, I was coming from Mr. Walsh. He indicated it was a work emergency. He was nonspecific. He didn't know the nature of it. I spoke to Mr. Walsh, said I was unaware of a work emergency that would necessitate bringing Anna back to DC. I said I would check, but I was unaware of any emergency at the residential properties in DC.
[03:05:56] Speaker 03:
Did you check?
[03:05:57] Speaker 06:
I did.
[03:05:57] Speaker 03:
Did you discover a work emergency?
[03:05:59] Speaker 06:
I did not.
[03:06:01] Speaker 03:
What else did you discuss during the course of that conversation?
[03:06:05] Speaker 06:
I asked him how, if he believed his wife was headed to DC, how she got there. Did she fly? Did she take a train? How did she get to the airport or the train station?
[03:06:16] Speaker 03:
And what did he say?
[03:06:18] Speaker 06:
He was unaware. He indicated he did not know.
[03:06:24] Speaker 03:
And what else did you talk about during that conversation?
[03:06:27] Speaker 06:
It has to be any mechanism like most of us have to find your family. In the event of an emergency, find my iPhone. I said, do you use that technology with your wife? He said, no, I do not.
[03:06:43] Speaker 03:
What else did you discuss?
[03:06:45] Speaker 06:
I discussed that it was imperative, it was again, now the fourth. He tells me the last time he saw his wife was on the first. It was imperative that he reach out to local law enforcement. I asked him, had he done that? And he said, no, not yet. I told him that he must. I advised him that he should hang, as soon as we hang up the phone, call his local law enforcement. I asked him what department was the local department. He didn't know. I asked him where he lived. He said Cohasset. And I told him, I said, Mr. Walsh, as soon as we hang up, I'm going to call Cohasset Police Department and report your wife missing. I advise you to do the same.
[03:07:27] Speaker 03:
And what did he say?
[03:07:28] Speaker 06:
He said, I will. I will.
[03:07:32] Speaker 03:
Did you ask him what, if anything, he had done besides call work?
[03:07:38] Speaker 06:
He indicated that he was going to call other family and friends.
[03:07:46] Speaker 03:
Mr. Dunleavy, what name did you use when you spoke with him?
[03:07:51] Speaker 06:
My given name, Hugh Dunleavy.
[03:07:53] Speaker 03:
Do you use any nicknames currently?
[03:07:56] Speaker 06:
Not professionally, no.
[03:07:59] Speaker 03:
So what else did you do in hopes of finding on a Walsh that day?
[03:08:05] Speaker 06:
Very quickly, other than calling Cohassin Police Department, we did a health and welfare check of Anna's known DC residents. Contacted Washington DC's Metropolitan Police Department, and I asked two officers to meet me there.
[03:08:23] Speaker 03:
And that was that January 4th date?
[03:08:25] Speaker 06:
It was, later in the afternoon.
[03:08:27] Speaker 03:
Okay. And so who did you go to the DC home with?
[03:08:33] Speaker 06:
Teresa or Casey was already in route there and advised Teresa not to go in yet. Wait for law enforcement. I also took two engineers with me to the residence.
[03:08:43] Speaker 03:
And why did you need two engineers with you?
[03:08:46] Speaker 06:
With the assumption, we knew we didn't have a key, although Teresa indicated she did have the garage code to the townhouse. The engineers were there in the event that we needed to access the interior of the house, they could drill the locks if necessary.
[03:08:59] Speaker 03:
And who did those engineers work for?
[03:09:01] Speaker 06:
They worked for Tishman's Bar.
[03:09:04] Speaker 03:
And at some point, did you again speak to Mr. Walsh?
[03:09:08] Speaker 06:
I did.
[03:09:08] Speaker 03:
And where was that?
[03:09:11] Speaker 06:
Outside of Anna's DC residence.
[03:09:13] Speaker 03:
And how did that come about?
[03:09:15] Speaker 06:
I texted Mr. Walsh based, I believe, on the number that I got from Teresa to have him call me.
[03:09:20] Speaker 03:
And how was his demeanor when you spoke?
[03:09:24] Speaker 06:
Very calm, very cooperative.
[03:09:27] Speaker 03:
And why did you want to speak with him?
[03:09:30] Speaker 06:
I needed consent for the officers to go inside the residence to do that health and welfare.
[03:09:36] Speaker 03:
And so who did Mr. Walsh speak with?
[03:09:39] Speaker 06:
I told him that MPD police officers were with me. I handed my phone to the officers, the officers engaged Mr. Walsh directly and I'm assuming they gave, he gave verbal consent.
[03:09:52] Speaker 03:
And when you say MPD, can you just define that?
[03:09:54] Speaker 06:
Sure, my apologies. Washington DC Metropolitan Police Department, MPD.
[03:09:59] Speaker 03:
Thank you. And after the conversation with Mr. Walsh, what next happened?
[03:10:07] Speaker 06:
They gained access, so a cursory search of the outside of the townhouse indicated no forced entry. They gained access through the garage with the garage code that was provided. The interior garage door was locked.
[03:10:23] Speaker 03:
And then what happened?
[03:10:26] Speaker 06:
They asked the engineers to drill the lock to allow MPD into the residence.
[03:10:31] Speaker 03:
And did that happen?
[03:10:32] Speaker 06:
It did.
[03:10:34] Speaker 03:
And what did the police then do?
[03:10:36] Speaker 06:
I'm sorry, say again.
[03:10:37] Speaker 03:
What did the police then do, sir?
[03:10:39] Speaker 06:
They went into the residence by themselves.
[03:10:41] Speaker 03:
Okay. And where were you?
[03:10:43] Speaker 06:
Myself, Theresa and the engineers remained outside the residence.
[03:10:47] Speaker 03:
And how long were the police inside?
[03:10:50] Speaker 06:
Not long, I would say 15 minutes approximately.
[03:10:55] Speaker 03:
And did you watch the police come outside?
[03:10:58] Speaker 06:
I did.
[03:10:58] Speaker 03:
And who did the police return outside with?
[03:11:02] Speaker 06:
No one, by themselves.
[03:11:04] Speaker 03:
Did you see Anna Walsh?
[03:11:06] Speaker 06:
I did not.
[03:11:09] Speaker 03:
Did anyone seek assistance that day?
[03:11:12] Speaker 06:
No.
[03:11:14] Speaker 03:
So after the initial text and phone conversation to get into the house, did you have any other communication with Mr. Walsh?
[03:11:22] Speaker 06:
Later in the day, sometime around 5 p.m., he texted me asking if I had found Anna's car.
[03:11:30] Speaker 03:
and was on his car at the townhouse?
[03:11:34] Speaker 06:
It was not.
[03:11:37] Speaker 03:
Did you begin an investigation into the location of the car?
[03:11:41] Speaker 06:
I did.
[03:11:43] Speaker 03:
And were you able to locate the car?
[03:11:47] Speaker 06:
I was.
[03:11:47] Speaker 03:
Where did you locate that car?
[03:11:50] Speaker 06:
At DC Crossing, southeast DC.
[03:11:53] Speaker 03:
And how did you find the car?
[03:11:55] Speaker 06:
We asked the property management staff there to go down to the garage. They were able to locate the vehicle in the garage. We also pulled video evidence of her entering the garage.
[03:12:07] Speaker 03:
And in your capacity, were you able to review that in terms of her being there on a certain date?
[03:12:20] Speaker 06:
It was.
[03:12:20] Speaker 03:
And what date was that?
[03:12:22] Speaker 06:
On about the 30th of December.
[03:12:25] Speaker 03:
Do you remember a time for that generally?
[03:12:27] Speaker 06:
I don't know. It was dark. I don't remember the time.
[03:12:30] Speaker 03:
OK. In your capacity as director of security, are you aware of how employees of Tishman Spire gain access to your buildings?
[03:12:39] Speaker 06:
I am.
[03:12:39] Speaker 03:
And how do they?
[03:12:41] Speaker 06:
Standard access control technologies, whether that's a proximity card or an access device that's on your phone, those access records are date stamped, time date stamped.
[03:12:51] Speaker 03:
And how is that data maintained?
[03:12:53] Speaker 06:
Electronically.
[03:12:55] Speaker 03:
And when is that maintained?
[03:12:57] Speaker 06:
Usually locally on a server at whatever property that these access control records are maintained.
[03:13:05] Speaker 03:
And is that maintained in real time?
[03:13:07] Speaker 06:
It is.
[03:13:08] Speaker 03:
And when was the last time that Anna used her access to a Tishman Spire building?
[03:13:13] Speaker 06:
On or about the 30th of December.
[03:13:15] Speaker 03:
And in your capacity as director of security, are you aware of emails, phones, and corporate credit cards issued to employees of Tishman Spire?
[03:13:23] UNKNOWN:
I am.
[03:13:24] Speaker 03:
And are Tishman Spire employees routinely issued email accounts?
[03:13:28] Speaker 06:
They are.
[03:13:29] Speaker 03:
And what email does your company use?
[03:13:31] Speaker 06:
The domain name is at tishmanspire.com.
[03:13:35] Speaker 03:
And was Ana provided an email?
[03:13:37] Speaker 06:
She was.
[03:13:38] Speaker 03:
And how is that data maintained?
[03:13:42] Speaker 06:
Electronically.
[03:13:43] Speaker 03:
And did you determine the last time that she used her work email?
[03:13:47] Speaker 06:
I did.
[03:13:48] Speaker 03:
And when was that? For a non-recurring account? For a non-recurring email?
[03:13:54] Speaker 06:
On or about, again, the 30th of December.
[03:13:56] Speaker 03:
And was Anna issued a work laptop for Tishman Speyer?
[03:14:02] Speaker 06:
She was, yes.
[03:14:03] Speaker 03:
And what type of work laptop, generally, was she issued?
[03:14:08] Speaker 06:
We are generally issued a Microsoft-type laptop. Not a personal, not a tower, but a laptop.
[03:14:14] Speaker 03:
A laptop. And you said Microsoft, meaning not an Apple product?
[03:14:19] Speaker 06:
No, generally not Apple products or issues.
[03:14:22] Speaker 03:
And did Ana have a corporate phone?
[03:14:25] Speaker 06:
She did.
[03:14:26] Speaker 03:
Are certain Tishman Spire employees provided corporate credit cards?
[03:14:30] Speaker 06:
They are.
[03:14:31] Speaker 03:
And was Ana Walsh provided a corporate credit card?
[03:14:34] Speaker 06:
She was actually provided two.
[03:14:36] Speaker 03:
Through what?
[03:14:37] Speaker 06:
Through American Express.
[03:14:38] Speaker 03:
And did you determine the last time that she used her corporate credit card for a non-recurring charge?
[03:14:44] Speaker 06:
Non-recurring is again on or about the 30th of December.
[03:14:47] Speaker 03:
Of 2022?
[03:14:48] Speaker 06:
That's correct.
[03:14:51] Speaker 03:
And would you know or be notified if Ana used email or her American Express corporate card?
[03:14:58] Speaker 06:
As part of that investigation, I contacted our IT staff and asked them to notify me in the event that she logged in, used the credit card, tried to communicate at all on our work networks.
[03:15:18] Speaker 03:
Did you keep her car in the DC Cross Street building for some time?
[03:15:23] Speaker 06:
Her car was maintained there for some time, yes.
[03:15:25] Speaker 03:
Okay. And what was done with her license plate?
[03:15:29] Speaker 06:
Ultimately, when the car was recovered, we recovered everything, the entire contents of the vehicle to include the license plates. They were maintained stored in boxes in our offices until they were released to law enforcement.
[03:15:43] Speaker 03:
Mr. Dunleavy, have you seen Anna Walsh since you began looking for her on January 4th of 2023?
[03:15:49] Speaker 06:
I have not.
[03:15:51] Speaker 03:
I might have one moment, Your Honor. May I?
[03:16:05] Speaker 08:
Thank you. Ross? No questions. May I step down, sir?
[03:16:10] Speaker 06:
Thank you, Judge.
[03:16:22] Speaker 03:
The Commonwealth may call its next witness. Thank you. The Commonwealth would call Patricia Patterson.
[03:16:50] Speaker 28:
the truth and nothing but the truth.
[03:17:20] Speaker 03:
Good morning.
[03:17:21] Speaker 32:
Good morning.
[03:17:23] Speaker 03:
Could you just please state your name and spell your last name for the record?
[03:17:26] Speaker 32:
Sure, Patricia Patterson, P-A-T-T-E-R-S-O-N. And where are you employed ma'am? Walgreens.
[03:17:35] Speaker 03:
And which store is that?
[03:17:37] Speaker 32:
The one in Cohasset.
[03:17:39] Speaker 03:
And where is that located?
[03:17:41] Speaker 32:
Cohasset, Massachusetts. What's the address? Oh, 767 Chief Justice Cushing Highway.
[03:17:47] Speaker 03:
Thank you. And how long have you worked there?
[03:17:49] Speaker 32:
24 years.
[03:17:52] Speaker 03:
And what is your role at the Walgreens in Cohasset?
[03:17:56] Speaker 32:
I'm a shift lead.
[03:17:57] Speaker 03:
And what was your role in January of 2023?
[03:18:01] Speaker 32:
Shift lead.
[03:18:02] Speaker 03:
And what are your responsibilities as the shift lead?
[03:18:05] Speaker 32:
run the store, open, close.
[03:18:12] Speaker 03:
And do you have responsibilities in terms of surveillance systems? Yes. Thank you. Maybe if you could just push the microphone a little bit closer. Thank you so much. Thank you. So does Walgreens have a surveillance system at Store 118 in Cohasset?
[03:18:29] Speaker 31:
Yes.
[03:18:30] Speaker 03:
And did they in January of 2023? Yes. And does Walgreens maintain its surveillance video in good faith?
[03:18:37] Speaker 31:
Yes.
[03:18:39] Speaker 03:
And does it do so in the normal course of business?
[03:18:42] Speaker 31:
Yes.
[03:18:43] Speaker 03:
And what is the purpose of the cameras at your store?
[03:18:48] Speaker 32:
They're for surveillance to watch people come in and out and make sure nobody steals and
[03:18:59] Speaker 03:
And do the cameras at your store record in real time?
[03:19:02] Speaker 32:
Yes.
[03:19:04] Speaker 03:
And where were the cameras in your store located?
[03:19:07] Speaker 32:
There's one at the front door. There's one facing the front registers. And there's one down near the pharmacy.
[03:19:19] Speaker 03:
And where is the footage stored?
[03:19:23] Speaker 32:
Through a locked door in a locked cabinet.
[03:19:28] Speaker 03:
And who has the code and the keys for all of that?
[03:19:35] Speaker 32:
My boss.
[03:19:38] Speaker 03:
And does the shift lead also have access to that area?
[03:19:41] Speaker 31:
Yes.
[03:19:43] Speaker 03:
And did you allow law enforcement access to your surveillance system on January 7th of 2023? Yes. And have you reviewed the footage that you allowed law enforcement to access? Yes. And did you recognize that footage? Yes. And did you also recognize the sales associate in the footage as well?
[03:20:04] Speaker 31:
Yes.
[03:20:11] Speaker 03:
Your honor, may I approach?
[03:20:12] Speaker 11:
You may.
[03:20:25] Speaker 03:
I'm showing you a thumb drive. Do you recognize that thumb drive?
[03:20:29] Speaker 31:
Yes.
[03:20:30] Speaker 03:
And I'd ask that you to look at it. Yep. I'm gonna turn it around.
[03:20:38] Speaker 31:
Okay, yeah.
[03:20:42] Speaker 32:
Yeah.
[03:20:44] Speaker 03:
And what do you recognize on this, ma'am?
[03:20:46] Speaker 32:
That I signed it.
[03:20:48] Speaker 03:
And do you recognize this to be your signature of the thumb drive that you viewed?
[03:20:52] Speaker 32:
Yes.
[03:20:53] Speaker 03:
I'd ask that this be the next exhibit.
[03:20:56] Speaker 10:
No objection. It's marked and admitted into evidence as exhibit 192.
[03:21:15] Speaker 03:
Your honor, I'd ask that we now play this for the jury.
[03:21:19] Speaker 10:
192 can be published.
[03:22:27] Speaker 03:
Ms. Gilman, I asked you just to stop right there. And Ms. Patterson, I asked if you could just tell me the date and the time on the top.
[03:22:37] Speaker 32:
It is January 1st, 2023 at 1540.12. Thank you.
[03:22:45] Speaker 03:
Thank you, Ms. Gilman. Ms. Patterson, does Walgreens also have receipts?
[03:22:52] Speaker 31:
Yes.
[03:22:53] Speaker 03:
Are receipts provided for customers and also maintained in the normal course of business?
[03:22:57] Speaker 31:
Yes.
[03:22:58] Speaker 03:
Does Walgreens provide receipts and keep them in good faith, not altering them?
[03:23:03] Speaker 32:
Yes.
[03:23:04] Speaker 03:
And when is a receipt created?
[03:23:07] Speaker 32:
Once you make the payment, the receipt comes out.
[03:23:11] Speaker 03:
Thank you. Your Honour, may I approach? You may.
[03:23:28] Speaker 32:
Yes, I do.
[03:23:29] Speaker 03:
And what is this?
[03:23:30] Speaker 32:
This is the receipt from the day that Mr. Walsh came in through the store.
[03:23:37] Speaker 03:
Your Honor, I ask that this be the next exhibit.
[03:23:41] Speaker 10:
No objection. The receipt from 1123 is in evidence from Walgreens as 193.
[03:24:07] Speaker 28:
Ms. Patterson, what is this receipt for?
[03:24:33] Speaker 32:
It is for anti-itch band-aids and Walgreens Max triple antibiotic cream.
[03:24:44] Speaker 03:
And what is the date of the receipt?
[03:24:45] Speaker 32:
1-1-2023 at 3.39 p.m. And how much is the transaction for? $21.02.
[03:24:58] Speaker 03:
And how were the items paid for?
[03:25:00] Speaker 32:
A visa.
[03:25:04] Speaker 03:
Thank you. And who was the cashier?
[03:25:08] Speaker 32:
Donna.
[03:25:09] Speaker 03:
And was that the woman who was in the video?
[03:25:11] Speaker 32:
Yes.
[03:25:13] Speaker 03:
And who was the operator?
[03:25:14] Speaker 32:
Me, Patty.
[03:25:18] Speaker 03:
And what does that mean?
[03:25:19] Speaker 32:
It means that I printed the receipt.
[03:25:22] Speaker 03:
Thank you very much.
[03:25:29] Speaker 08:
Any cross? The witness may step down. Thank you.
[03:25:33] Speaker 32:
Thank you.
[03:25:49] Speaker 10:
Conwell may call its next witness.
[03:25:51] Speaker 24:
Conwell may call Joseph Caesars.
[03:26:16] Speaker 28:
Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you'll give, and the cause now in hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God. Thank you, sir.
[03:26:34] Speaker 10:
You may proceed.
[03:26:35] Speaker 24:
Thank you, Your Honor. Sir, could you state your name and spell your last name for the record?
[03:26:39] Speaker 05:
Joseph Caesars, C-E-S-A-R-Z. And where do you work, sir? I work at Vin and Liquors in Swampscott, Massachusetts. How long have you worked at Vin and Liquors? About 20 years. And what do you do at Vin and Liquors? I'm store manager.
[03:26:53] Speaker 24:
And where is Vin and Liquors located in Swampscott, Mass?
[03:26:57] Speaker 05:
It's on Paradise Road or Route 1A, right next to the Whole Foods.
[03:27:02] Speaker 24:
And you say right next to Whole Foods, what does it have as far as a parking lot connecting?
[03:27:06] Speaker 07:
Everybody up? We lost our signal.
[03:27:18] Speaker 24:
Just looking at the technology portion.
[03:27:21] Speaker 07:
Hold on one second.
[03:27:34] Speaker 26:
I suppose that's what happens when you're in a building that is this age.
[03:27:43] Speaker 10:
We need to be a little bit more sympathetic to her age. So we're not back up on the ability to show exhibits. Is that the only thing that's impacted? FTR is running. Sure. And you can get up and move about if you wish.
[03:28:42] Speaker 07:
That's it. That's it. That's it.
[03:29:46] Speaker 10:
So all the necessary essentials are going. That is, FDR is going, our computers are going. What's not going is the screens. So I prefer to just keep on keeping on. And that means that if we have to hand pass, earlier I mentioned to you, or I suggested to one of the lawyers, I don't recall who, that we could do it the old fashioned way. The old fashioned way means you pass. and we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
[03:30:21] Speaker 24:
Thank you, Your Honor.
[03:30:23] Speaker 09:
Go right ahead.
[03:30:24] Speaker 24:
Thank you, Your Honor. So, sir, I think I was about to ask you, as far as the parking lot for Vin and Liquors, what access does it have to Whole Foods?
[03:30:33] Speaker 05:
It shares the entrance and exit. Now, are you familiar with Brian Walsh? Yes, he was a fairly regular customer of ours. Do you see him here today?
[03:30:44] Speaker 24:
I do, yep. Could you identify him for the court, identifying a piece of art by an article of clothing he might be wearing? He's wearing a blue suit. And could you just point to him, sir?
[03:30:55] Speaker 05:
Right there.
[03:30:55] Speaker 24:
Your honor, if the record may reflect the witnesses, identify the defendant.
[03:30:59] Speaker 10:
The record will so reflect.
[03:31:01] Speaker 05:
How many times have you met Mr. Walsh? Dozens. He would come to the store fairly frequently on the weekends. And when he would come in, would you have any conversations with him? Yeah, he would kind of hang out and kind of talk with the different managers and we would all kind of know him. He would spend a little bit more time than a regular customer. He would just kind of hang out. He didn't really have anything else to do.
[03:31:31] Speaker 24:
I think we're about to cross the bridge, but I'm going to start trying. Sir, what does your store have as far as surveillance videos for the exterior of it?
[03:31:41] Speaker 05:
We have extensive surveillance of cameras on all corners. We have cameras on the loading dock, dumpsters, entrance, and then inside. We have about 40 cameras total.
[03:31:54] Speaker 24:
Now, sir, these cameras, are they film or digital? Are they downloading anything?
[03:32:02] Speaker 05:
Digital, they're downloaded to a server.
[03:32:04] Speaker 24:
Okay, and who has access to the server?
[03:32:07] Speaker 05:
Just myself and the owner.
[03:32:09] Speaker 24:
And I take it that it's downloading the server immediately as soon as it's recording?
[03:32:14] Speaker 04:
Correct.
[03:32:15] Speaker 24:
And sir, these videos, are they maintained in the normal course of business?
[03:32:20] Speaker 04:
Yes.
[03:32:21] Speaker 24:
And are they maintained in good faith?
[03:32:24] Speaker 04:
Yes.
[03:32:25] Speaker 24:
Did you have the opportunity to produce videos to law enforcement in this matter? I did. And have you reviewed them before coming in here today? Yes. Have they been altered in any way?
[03:32:35] Speaker 05:
No.
[03:32:44] Speaker 24:
Yes, you may.
[03:32:47] Speaker 10:
Thank you.
[03:32:50] Speaker 24:
Sir, do you recognize this drive I'm handing you?
[03:32:52] Speaker 04:
Yes.
[03:32:53] Speaker 24:
Is that a drive that you reviewed with videos from bin and liquors?
[03:32:56] Speaker 04:
It is.
[03:32:58] Speaker 24:
And looking at the backside of the tag, are those your initials on it?
[03:33:01] Speaker 04:
Yes.
[03:33:02] Speaker 24:
The common will proceed to have the drive with the videos marked as the next exhibit from bin and liquors.
[03:33:07] Speaker 10:
Any objection? It's a thumb drive, yes?
[03:33:11] Speaker 24:
Yes, it is, Your Honor.
[03:33:12] Speaker 10:
Thumb drive from Vinnens-Likard's footage is now in evidence as 194.
[03:33:15] Speaker 24:
Your Honor, with the court's permission and with hopefully a working television, could we publish these videos?
[03:33:38] UNKNOWN:
Sure.
[03:33:39] Speaker 24:
Thank you, Your Honor. So, Ms. Gilman, I'm asking you to publish what's labeled as Video Channel 52. Pause, if I may, Ms. Gilman. Sir, where is this in relation to your store?
[03:34:05] Speaker 05:
This is the front of the store, the parking lot. Okay. So yeah, right in the front of the store.
[03:34:12] Speaker 24:
Ms. Gilman, if you could continue to play. Ms. Gilman, can we have, and sir, before we play the next video, on the screen, when you look towards the right-hand side, where does that take you as far as the store?
[03:38:18] Speaker 05:
To the dumpster and the loading dock. Okay.
[03:38:22] Speaker 24:
Ms. Gilman, can we have what's been marked as channel 34 at two minutes and 15 seconds into that video? And if you could. Ms. Gilman, I apologize, but could we have where it says in the media player two minutes and 15 seconds? Thank you, Ms. Gilman. Sir, what area is this of your store?
[03:39:59] Speaker 05:
That's a loading dock, dumpster area to the right of the building.
[03:40:04] Speaker 24:
And Ms. Gilman, can we see the file names for these two files? So, sir, on these file numbers, what is the significance of the 2003? That's a year. And after 0101, what is that?
[03:40:40] Speaker 05:
That would be the date, New Year's Day.
[03:40:44] Speaker 24:
New Year's Day. And then after that 171244, what's the significance of that?
[03:40:51] Speaker 05:
The time, so yeah, that would be the time.
[03:40:54] Speaker 24:
And is that military time? It is. So would that be 512 p.m.? Correct. Okay. Thank you, Ms. Gilman. Now, sir, On these videos from New Year's Day, your store, is it open on New Year's Day? No, it's not. In fact, are any liquor stores in Massachusetts open on New Year's Day?
[03:41:16] Speaker 05:
I don't believe so.
[03:41:23] Speaker 24:
Now, sir, when was your dumpster emptied after New Year's Day, if you know?
[03:41:30] Speaker 05:
I'm not really sure. The following Monday or Tuesday, so beginning of the week.
[03:41:37] Speaker 24:
Beginning of the week. And did you recognize anyone in that video? I'm sorry, what? Did you recognize anyone in those videos? Yes, Brian. And sir, you don't have any footage of Mr. Walsh inside your store from January 1st, is that correct? No, we're closed. Nothing further, you're on.
[03:41:57] Speaker 10:
Cross. The witness may step down, thank you.
[03:42:12] Speaker 24:
The Commonwealth may call its next witness.
[03:42:35] Speaker 28:
You may proceed.
[03:42:52] Speaker 24:
Thank you, your honor. Sir, could you state your name and spell your first name and last name for the record?
[03:42:56] Speaker 16:
Yeah, it is Cade Reed, C-A-D-E-R-E-E-D. Where do you work, sir? I work at Lowe's Home Improvement.
[03:43:04] Speaker 24:
What is your role at Lowe's Home Improvement? I am the district asset protection manager. And can you tell us what the district, what the responsibilities you have as being the district asset protection manager?
[03:43:14] Speaker 16:
Yeah, overall I'm in charge of supporting the stores in terms of shrink, as well as mitigating any theft or losses, as well as ensuring that compliance and safety standards are upheld.
[03:43:25] Speaker 24:
And do you have a geographic area that you cover?
[03:43:29] Speaker 16:
Yeah, I cover from as north as Lowell, Massachusetts, all the way down to Abington, Massachusetts. And how long have you been with Lowe's? I've been with them for four years.
[03:43:39] Speaker 24:
And with that time, have you always been the District Asset Protection Manager? Yes. With Lowe's, did you have the opportunity to review surveillance video from their Danvers store on January 1st, 2023?
[03:43:55] Speaker 15:
Yes.
[03:43:56] Speaker 24:
Now, what does the Danvers store have as far as surveillance video cameras?
[03:44:01] Speaker 16:
Yes, so we have cameras on the outside of the property, inside of the property. as well as different sort of cameras when it comes to the fixed, which is 24 hours, seven days a week, pointing down, and then we have pan-tilt zoom cameras, which have, they're called PTZ cameras, and they can actually zoom into something, pan it, tilt it, I can move it whenever I want live.
[03:44:22] Speaker 24:
And sir, do these record in film or is it digital?
[03:44:27] Speaker 16:
It's digital.
[03:44:27] Speaker 24:
So where does that information go to?
[03:44:29] Speaker 16:
It's into an external hard drive so I can pull from a variety of different days and hours.
[03:44:34] Speaker 24:
And does anyone else have access to the hard drive?
[03:44:37] Speaker 16:
Yes. Who else would have access? Any of my peers as well as my associates.
[03:44:42] Speaker 24:
And this digital information from the Lowe's in Danvers, is it kept in normal course of business?
[03:44:49] Speaker 15:
Yes.
[03:44:49] Speaker 24:
And it kept in good faith?
[03:44:50] Speaker 15:
Yes.
[03:44:51] Speaker 24:
And you're aware that Lowe's produced videos from January 1st of their Danvers store to law enforcement? Yes. Have you had a chance to review a collection of those videos together from the Lowe's in Danvers for January 1st? Yes. Have they been altered in any way other than putting different snips together in one seamless video?
[03:45:11] Speaker 16:
No.
[03:45:14] Speaker 24:
And, sir, have you had the chance to review a hard drive with these videos this morning? Yes. And, again, these videos, they did not appear to be altered in any way. No. Also, before I answer this question, do you have the opportunity to review a video from the Weyman Loads as well?
[03:45:35] Speaker 15:
Yes. Yes.
[03:45:47] Speaker 24:
My associates as well as my peers. Yes. Yes. No. Any objection?
[03:46:19] Speaker 10:
The thumb drive of the Lowe's videos from Danvers and Weymouth is now in evidence as Exhibit 195.
[03:46:25] Speaker 24:
Your Honor, with the court's permission, we have the Commonwealth play the video from January 1st, the Lowe's in Danvers from exhibit 195.
[03:46:45] Speaker 11:
You may.
[03:46:45] Speaker 24:
Thank you, Your Honor. And Ms. Gilman, I'm going to ask, if you can pause, I'm going to ask the witness a few questions. Sir, where is this in relation to the Lowe's in Danvers?
[03:47:00] Speaker 16:
This is in the parking lot, the front parking lot.
[03:47:03] Speaker 24:
And in the bottom, it says Park Lot Cam 1. What's that significant of?
[03:47:08] Speaker 16:
Yeah, so there's four different cameras in our parking lot. They're each pointed in a different way. So this would just be the first one pointing in that direction.
[03:47:16] Speaker 24:
And I see a date and time there. For these cameras, have you determined if the date and time are accurate? Yes. Ms. Gilman, if you could press play. Pause. Sir, where is this in the store in Lowe's?
[03:48:26] Speaker 16:
Yeah, so this is our main aisle, aisle one.
[03:48:30] Speaker 24:
Play this. Come on. Thank you. Pause, Ms. Gilman. Sir, where is this in the Lowes and Danvers?
[03:54:11] Speaker 16:
This is at the front end in the self-checkout area.
[03:54:15] Speaker 24:
If you could press play, Ms. Gilman. Thank you. Oh, hi, Ms. Gilman. Thank you. Sir, what angle are we looking at here?
[03:58:13] Speaker 16:
This is the angle from the actual self-checkout register itself, so the camera in front of it.
[03:58:18] Speaker 24:
So the self-checkout registers have cameras pointing out towards the customers as well? Yes. If you could press play, Ms. Gilman, thank you. Pause. Thank you. Sir, what is this angle we're looking at?
[03:58:40] Speaker 16:
This is our main exit.
[03:58:42] Speaker 24:
Thank you, Ms. Gilman. If you could press play. And Ms. Gilman, I'm going to ask if you could pause one more time. Sir, now where are we looking at when the camera says 606.55?
[03:59:06] Speaker 16:
This is the parking lot at 606-55.
[03:59:09] Speaker 24:
And is this PM or AM?
[03:59:11] Speaker 16:
This is PM.
[03:59:12] Speaker 24:
Thank you. You can press play, Ms. Gilman. Thank you. So, sir. Does Lowe's maintain receipts for its sales? Yes. And does it do so in the normal course of business?
[03:59:32] Speaker 15:
Yes.
[03:59:32] Speaker 24:
And in good faith?
[03:59:33] Speaker 15:
Yes.
[03:59:34] Speaker 24:
And does, I assume the customer gets a copy of the receipt, correct?
[03:59:37] Speaker 15:
Yes.
[03:59:37] Speaker 24:
But does Lowe's maintain a copy digitally?
[03:59:39] Speaker 15:
Yes.
[03:59:40] Speaker 24:
And do you have access to that?
[03:59:41] Speaker 15:
Yes.
[03:59:42] Speaker 24:
And was one produced as a result of these videos to law enforcement? Yes. Sir, do you recognize that document?
[03:59:56] Speaker 15:
Yes.
[03:59:57] Speaker 24:
Is that a receipt from, upside down, but now that it's right side up, is that a receipt from the Lowe's in Danvers?
[04:00:04] Speaker 15:
Yes.
[04:00:05] Speaker 24:
And it corresponds to the video that you just displayed for us? Yes. The Commonwealth would seek to have this marked as the next exhibit.
[04:00:12] Speaker 10:
Any objection? No. Close receipt is now in evidence from Danvers is now in evidence as 196.
[04:00:20] Speaker 22:
Thank you, Your Honor.
[04:00:25] Speaker 24:
You may. This is going, oh, thank you so much. You've already expanded. So, sir, looking at the top, what is sales number mean?
[04:00:46] Speaker 16:
This is where the actual sale took place, so I guess you could say it's the terminal.
[04:00:50] Speaker 24:
Okay, and what's this significant of SFT lane 413?
[04:00:54] Speaker 16:
Yeah, so that is our fast lane or just another way that we can say self-checkout.
[04:00:57] Speaker 24:
Okay, and transaction or trans number, what is that significant of?
[04:01:02] Speaker 16:
It's the transaction number, so whatever number that receipt rang you through.
[04:01:05] Speaker 24:
And at the top right hand corner, I take it that's the date? Yes. Ms. Gilman, can you scroll down to the bottom please? Now, at the bottom, what was the total for the sale?
[04:01:20] Speaker 16:
$463.26.
[04:01:21] Speaker 24:
And how was the sale conducted, cash or charge?
[04:01:27] Speaker 16:
It was cash.
[04:01:28] Speaker 24:
How much cash was presented?
[04:01:29] Speaker 16:
$500.
[04:01:30] Speaker 24:
And what is the time on the sale? It is 6.0545. Ms. Gilman, if you could close out of that. Thank you. And now, Your Honor, the Commonwealth would seek to play the Blurred video from Exhibit 195, January 4th, from Lowe's and Wayne.
[04:01:51] Speaker 11:
You may. Thank you, Your Honor.
[04:01:56] Speaker 24:
Pause, thank you. Sir, where is this in the Lowe's and Weymouth?
[04:02:00] Speaker 16:
This is our main vestibule, our entrance.
[04:02:03] Speaker 24:
What is VDSSRV1-1618 entry PVM mean?
[04:02:11] Speaker 16:
Yeah, so VDSSRV1 is the actual, it stands for video surveillance. So it is where our video was stored from and it's our first terminal. 1618 is the store number and then the entry PVM is the camera for the entry PVM or the entry.
[04:02:26] Speaker 24:
And the date and time at the bottom, sir, what are those?
[04:02:28] Speaker 16:
Yeah, it is January 4th, 2023 at 424.57 PM.
[04:02:34] Speaker 24:
And sir, as far as the date and time for the lows in Weymouth, is that accurate?
[04:02:39] Speaker 15:
Yes.
[04:02:41] Speaker 24:
Ms. Gimlin, could you press play? And pause, Ms. Gilman. So, sir, what view are we looking at here?
[04:02:58] Speaker 16:
This is the camera pointing from the self-checkout registers.
[04:03:02] Speaker 24:
And at the bottom, SCO Term 25, what does that mean?
[04:03:06] Speaker 16:
Self-checkout Terminal 25, so it's just the number that that self-checkout terminal is at.
[04:03:11] Speaker 24:
Ms. Gilman, if you could press play. Pause. Sir, where is this in the Lowes and Weymouth?
[04:06:05] Speaker 16:
This is our main exit.
[04:06:07] Speaker 24:
Press play, please. Ms. Gilman, thanks. No further questions for the witness, Your Honor.
[04:06:17] Speaker 10:
Cross. The witness may step down. Thank you. may call us next witness.
[04:06:32] Speaker 24:
Thank you your honor the call will call Jamie Swift.
[04:06:54] Speaker 28:
Thank you, Your Honor.
[04:07:14] Speaker 24:
Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Could you state your name and spell your last name, actually your first and last name for the record?
[04:07:19] Speaker 29:
My name is Jamie Flint, J-A-M-I, Flint, F-L-I-N-T. Where do you work? CVS in Danvers, Massachusetts. And where is the CVS in Danvers located? What is the address? One Maple Street. How long have you been with CVS? 19 years. And what is your role at CVS? Operations Manager RX.
[04:07:40] Speaker 24:
How long have you been the Operations Manager RX? So I take a pharmacy? Yes. Both, front and back. Front and back? Yes. Okay. And so how long have you been the Operations Manager? A little over a year. Okay. And how long have you been with the Danvers store itself? 19 years. Okay. So now what does the Danvers store have as far as store surveillance videos?
[04:08:07] Speaker 29:
We have multiple cameras throughout the store and the pharmacy.
[04:08:12] Speaker 24:
And what access as the operations manager do you have to the store surveillance video?
[04:08:17] Speaker 29:
I have full access to the video in the office.
[04:08:19] Speaker 24:
And I take it it stores to a server at the office? Yes. OK. And besides you, does anyone else have access to it?
[04:08:26] Speaker 29:
The other shift supervisors and the manager.
[04:08:28] Speaker 24:
All right. And the surveillance video for CVS, I take it it's maintaining good faith?
[04:08:34] Speaker 30:
Yes.
[04:08:35] Speaker 24:
And it's done so in the normal course of business?
[04:08:36] Speaker 30:
Yes.
[04:08:37] Speaker 24:
And did you have the opportunity to review surveillance video that had been produced to law enforcement in January of 2023 from your store?
[04:08:45] Speaker 29:
Yes.
[04:08:45] Speaker 24:
And had it been altered in any way?
[04:08:47] Speaker 29:
No.
[04:08:48] Speaker 24:
And so that video, it fairly and accurately depicts your story. Yes. No objection.
[04:09:02] Speaker 10:
It's in evidence now. The CVS thumb drive 197. What's the date of that? The date of the content. Thank you.
[04:09:26] Speaker 24:
Your honor may the Commonwealth publish exhibit 197.
[04:09:36] Speaker 11:
You may.
[04:09:36] Speaker 24:
Thank you. So if I could ask Ms. Gilman to pause. Ms. Flint, what are we looking at here as far as your store?
[04:09:54] Speaker 29:
That's the rear entrance of the store.
[04:09:56] Speaker 24:
Thank you. Ms. Gilman, if you could press play. Thank you. Now, Ms. Gilman, I believe there is a second camera angle on that video. Could we have that, please? And we have that on the media player at three minutes and 35 seconds. Ms. Flynn, if I could ask, where is this in your store?
[04:10:39] Speaker 29:
That's the front at the self checkout.
[04:10:40] Speaker 24:
Thank you. And Ms. Gilman, if you could press play.
[04:12:11] UNKNOWN:
Thank you.
[04:14:34] Speaker 24:
Thank you, Ms. Gilman. Now, does CVS maintain receipts of its transactions?
[04:14:40] Speaker 30:
Yes.
[04:14:41] Speaker 24:
And is that also done in the normal course of business?
[04:14:43] Speaker 30:
Yes.
[04:14:43] Speaker 24:
And in good faith? Yes. Now, I take it the customer gets a copy of the receipt, correct?
[04:14:47] Speaker 30:
Yes.
[04:14:48] Speaker 24:
Does CVS maintain a copy as well?
[04:14:50] Speaker 30:
We do.
[04:14:51] Speaker 24:
Electronically?
[04:14:52] Speaker 30:
Yes.
[04:14:52] Speaker 24:
And have you had the opportunity to review a receipt from your store corresponding to that transaction?
[04:14:56] Speaker 30:
Yes.
[04:15:05] Speaker 24:
Ms. Flint, I'm going to ask if you recognize this document. Yes. Is that the receipt that corresponds to that transaction? It is. Tom will seek to have the receipt from January 1, 2023 from CBS as the next transaction.
[04:15:19] Speaker 10:
Any objection? OK. That's now in evidence as 198, the CBS receipt from 1123. Thank you.
[04:15:30] Speaker 24:
Your Honor, may we publish?
[04:15:32] Speaker 10:
You may.
[04:15:33] Speaker 24:
Thank you. So, Ms. Flint, when it says term number, what does that mean?
[04:15:46] Speaker 29:
That's the terminal number.
[04:15:49] Speaker 24:
17, is that self-checkout?
[04:15:50] Speaker 29:
Yes.
[04:15:51] Speaker 24:
And transaction or trans number, what's that significant of?
[04:15:56] Speaker 29:
The transaction number on that terminal.
[04:15:57] Speaker 24:
Okay. And the date and time, what was the date and time for this transaction? January 1st, 2023 at 6.28 p.m. And cashier number name, what is that for this transaction? Self-checkout 17. And what was the total amount that the transaction cost?
[04:16:15] Speaker 29:
$19.
[04:16:17] Speaker 24:
What was purchased in the transaction according to the receipt?
[04:16:21] Speaker 29:
Five bottles of hydrogen peroxide spray and a roundup for Feed America.
[04:16:26] Speaker 24:
And was it cash or charge? Cash. I have no further questions, Your Honor.
[04:16:36] Speaker 10:
The witness may step down. I'm going to send you off for lunch now. The extent that we're back a few minutes late on the back side is because I just have to handle a quick matter right at 2 o'clock. So that'll be the delay for us getting back when it shouldn't be very long.
[04:17:25] Speaker 25:
All right, thank you. All right, to the court please.
[04:18:02] Speaker 08:
Anybody need anything?
[04:18:12] Speaker 10:
Have a good lunch.
[04:19:02] UNKNOWN:
. . Thank you. I'll be back. Oh.
[04:33:12] Speaker 13:
I'll be right back.
[04:37:18] UNKNOWN:
Thank you. you you you
[04:51:24] Speaker 14:
you
[04:52:46] UNKNOWN:
if if you Hmm. you you
[05:15:29] Speaker 33:
I'm going to turn it over here.
[05:15:47] UNKNOWN:
From my understanding, it's a final surrender room. Mr. Manzias was held in custody back in October because of a number of final strikes that happened on the 16th. That's what I saw in the back. Oh, I mentioned, I thought I think it seems like it needs to get developed over time. It's not often under control. We're not going to have any chance of them delivering UR by night. That seems to be the problem. So my question as I review these workers to come out today is, I didn't think it was going to take us two hours to find it out.
[05:18:37] Speaker 33:
or something like that, help him to find a long term residential.
[05:18:58] UNKNOWN:
So here's what I'm going to propose, and it's going to be stuff that I propose. It goes into the A, the 2, the 3, the 4, the 5, the 6, the 7, the 8, the 9, the 10, the 11, the 12, the 13, the 14, the 15, the 16, the 17, the 18, the 19, the 20, the 21, the 22, the 23, the 24, the 25, the 26, the 27, the 28, the 29, the 30, the 31, the 31, the 32, the 31, the 32, the 33, the 33, the 33, the 34, the 34, the 35, the 35, the 36, the 36, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37, the 37 Maybe I do. That's one of the reasons. But women have a good sense of it. The probationary sentences I read at the Department of Law overlapped with the incarcerative sentence. So it wasn't a consequential sentence. It was a coming after probation that violated our sentence. We were struggling with the terms of the sentence. But here we are. Is that correct, Ellen? It was three of the five, I think, that they could see us. I'll see you again before I leave.
[05:20:59] Speaker 33:
I'm sorry, I just wanted to say that I thought it was a good idea.
[05:21:28] UNKNOWN:
Thank you. You are unmuted.
[05:24:32] Speaker 14:
Okay.
[05:25:01] UNKNOWN:
you Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. . .
[05:28:33] Speaker 10:
The Commonwealth may call its next witness.
[05:28:35] Speaker 24:
Thank you, Your Honor. The Commonwealth would call Gregory Deneen.
[05:28:54] Speaker 28:
So do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you'll give in the cause now in hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, the whole people? Thank you, sir.
[05:29:04] Speaker 25:
Thank you. And you may proceed.
[05:29:10] Speaker 24:
Thank you, Your Honor. Sir, could you please state your name and spell your last name for the record? Gregory Dineen.
[05:29:19] Speaker 21:
D-I-N-N-E-E-N. Where do you work, sir? For Ajo del Haze, USA. What is Ajo del Haze? Ajo del Haze is the parent company of Stop and Shop Supermarket. And do they have any other supermarket change underneath their banners? They do. They have Hannaford Supermarkets, The Giant Company, Food Lion. And what is your role for Ajo del Haze? I'm an investigation specialist assigned to the New England Division. And how long have you been with them?
[05:29:49] Speaker 24:
Approximately 25 years. And as a result of your role there, do you have access to surveillance videos? I do. Now, your area, does it include, you said New England, Swampskate Mass? It does. I'd like to ask some questions about the stop and shop in Swampskate. What does it have as far as surveillance video?
[05:30:11] Speaker 21:
It has color cameras inside the building as well as exterior cameras. And do they record to a server or they film or whatnot? They record to DVR units within the store. And do you have access to those? I do. Does anyone else get access to the recordings? There are other individuals that have access. They're within the ass protection department.
[05:30:34] UNKNOWN:
Okay.
[05:30:34] Speaker 24:
And sir, are you familiar with the videos that was turned over by your company to law enforcement in January of 2023 from the Swampskid Stop and Shop?
[05:30:46] Speaker 21:
I am.
[05:30:47] Speaker 24:
Have you had a chance to review those before today to make sure that they haven't been altered in any way?
[05:30:52] Speaker 21:
I have.
[05:30:53] Speaker 24:
And in doing so, did you sign a tag to a thumb drive to confirm that those were the videos? I did. And sir, Let me ask you this. Your videos, are they kept in the normal course of business? They are. In good faith?
[05:31:08] Speaker 10:
They are.
[05:31:08] Speaker 24:
Your honor, may I approach?
[05:31:09] Speaker 10:
You sure can.
[05:31:10] Speaker 24:
Thank you, your honor. Sir, do you recognize the initials on the tag on that drive?
[05:31:18] Speaker 21:
I do, they're mine.
[05:31:19] Speaker 24:
And on the front of it, is it for Stop and Shop, Swampskate?
[05:31:23] Speaker 21:
It is.
[05:31:24] Speaker 24:
Is this the drive with the videos that you reviewed before coming in here today?
[05:31:27] Speaker 21:
Yes, it is.
[05:31:28] Speaker 24:
The Commonwealth would seek to enter the stop and shop videos from January 1, 2023 in Swampstead as the next exhibit drawn.
[05:31:36] Speaker 10:
Any objection? The stop and shop thumb drive from Swampstead store 1123 is now in evidence as 199. Thank you.
[05:31:51] Speaker 24:
Your Honor, with the court's permission, I will publish these videos.
[05:31:56] Speaker 11:
You may.
[05:31:56] Speaker 24:
Thank you, Your Honor. Can we have the first video? I believe it's exterior. And if you could pause.
[05:32:04] Speaker 21:
Mr. Deneen, what are we looking at here? This is the interior entrance vestibule of Stop and Shop in Swampskate.
[05:32:12] Speaker 24:
And at the top, where there's a date and time, is the date and time on the Stop and Shop videos accurate? They are accurate. And in the bottom, there is prod entry in SS0015-01. What is that, sir?
[05:32:30] Speaker 21:
So prod entry is referring to the side of the building. The front, there's two entrances to stop and shop. This is referring to the produce entry. And SS0015 is the location number. So stop and shop, store 15 is Swampskip, Massachusetts. And the 01 is Unit 1. There are multiple DVR units in this location.
[05:32:53] Speaker 24:
Ms. Gilman, if you could press play. Now, Ms. Gilman, can we have the second video? And Mr. Deneen, where are we looking at right now in the video?
[05:33:11] Speaker 21:
Sure. This is the front of the store looking at self-scan register number 13.
[05:33:17] Speaker 24:
And sir, the SS015-02, I understand that's the store code, but what does the 02 mean?
[05:33:26] Speaker 21:
The 02 is referring to the DVR unit that it's recording on. So again, there's multiple DVR units in this location. The first one that we saw of the entryway was on 01. This one's on 02.
[05:33:38] Speaker 24:
Thank you. Ms. Gimlin, if you could press play.
[05:34:28] UNKNOWN:
Okay.
[05:35:43] Speaker 24:
Thank you, Ms. Gilman. If you could close out of that, please. Thank you. Sir, does Stop and Shop and Swamp Scott create receipts for its sales?
[05:35:50] Speaker 21:
They do.
[05:35:51] Speaker 24:
And are those also kept in the normal course of business?
[05:35:53] Speaker 21:
They are.
[05:35:54] Speaker 24:
And in good faith?
[05:35:55] Speaker 21:
They are.
[05:35:55] Speaker 24:
And is it created at the point of time when the transaction occurs? It is. And did you have the opportunity to review a receipt that was produced for your company that corresponded to that transaction? I did.
[05:36:08] Speaker 22:
Your Honor, may I approach? You may.
[05:36:09] Speaker 24:
Thank you, Your Honor. Mr. Deneen, do you recognize the object I'm handing you?
[05:36:17] Speaker 21:
I do.
[05:36:18] Speaker 24:
Is that the receipt that your store produced that corresponds to the transaction from the Swanscot video? It is. The Commonwealth will seek to have this marked as necessary.
[05:36:26] Speaker 10:
Any objection? No objection. The receipt for the transaction reflected in 199 is now in evidence as 200.
[05:36:43] Speaker 24:
Your Honor, with the court's permission, may I publish the receipt?
[05:36:46] Speaker 11:
You may.
[05:36:46] Speaker 24:
Thank you, Your Honor. Ms. Gilman? So directing your attention to exhibit 199 on the screen, sir, what is the, the store is 15, so that corresponds to Stop and Shop Swampskate?
[05:37:09] Speaker 21:
That's correct.
[05:37:10] Speaker 24:
Okay. And what does the cashier number mean?
[05:37:14] Speaker 21:
Cashier is listing as 880013, which is a self-scan register cashier number.
[05:37:21] Speaker 24:
And what does POS mean, sir?
[05:37:23] Speaker 21:
POS is the register number. And again, the number four refers to self-scan.
[05:37:29] Speaker 24:
And transaction number?
[05:37:31] Speaker 21:
Is 148.
[05:37:32] Speaker 24:
And sir, with this, can we scroll down this going?
[05:37:38] Speaker 22:
Thank you.
[05:37:42] Speaker 24:
Excellent.
[05:37:43] Speaker 21:
Sir, what is the date and time on the receipt? The date is January 1st, 2023 at 6.56 p.m. And what was the total cost of the purchase? The total cost with tax is $11.56. And was it a cash or was it a credit card? It was a cash transaction.
[05:38:05] Speaker 24:
I have no further questions for the witness, Your Honor.
[05:38:07] Speaker 08:
Any cross? Witness may step down. Thank you, sir.
[05:38:21] Speaker 10:
The Commonwealth may call its next witness.
[05:38:25] Speaker 03:
The Commonwealth would call Matthew Sheehan.
[05:38:47] Speaker 28:
Do you solemnly swear our firm testimony of giving the cries down in Haringey will give the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
[05:39:04] UNKNOWN:
Yes.
[05:39:07] Speaker 09:
Thank you sir, you can receive it.
[05:39:08] UNKNOWN:
Just watch this.
[05:39:09] Speaker 12:
A little bit more.
[05:39:20] Speaker 10:
All right. So is it correct that the parties have pre-agreed to those exhibits? All right. So there's a group of exhibits that are going to come in. Jurors, through this witness, the reporter tells me those are 201 to 250. As they come in and that they've been agreed to by both parties, as they come in ADA YAS, you'll identify them for the record.
[05:39:43] Speaker 03:
Absolutely. Thank you very much. All right. You may proceed. Thank you, Your Honor. trying not to drop them all. Good afternoon.
[05:39:55] Speaker 17:
Good afternoon.
[05:39:56] Speaker 03:
Could you please state your name for the record and spell your last name?
[05:39:59] Speaker 17:
Matthew Sheehan, S-H-E-E-H-A-N. And where do you work, sir? At the Massachusetts State Police Crime Lab.
[05:40:07] Speaker 03:
And what is your role there?
[05:40:09] Speaker 17:
I am a Forensic Scientist III in the Crime Scene Response and Criminalistics Units.
[05:40:14] Speaker 03:
And how long have you been with the crime lab?
[05:40:16] Speaker 17:
Just over 12 years.
[05:40:18] Speaker 03:
And where did you go to school, sir?
[05:40:20] Speaker 17:
The University of New Haven.
[05:40:23] Speaker 03:
And what degree do you have?
[05:40:25] Speaker 17:
I have a bachelor's of science degree in forensic science with a concentration in chemistry.
[05:40:30] Speaker 03:
And can you detail your history at the Massachusetts State Police Crime Lab?
[05:40:35] Speaker 17:
I was originally hired in September of 2013 as a forensic scientist one, which is mainly a training position. The following year in 2014, I was promoted to an FS2, which is a full time case working analyst. For a period of about six months in the year of 2022, I was acting crime scene supervisor. And following that, I was promoted to criminalistic supervisor in November of 2024.
[05:41:02] Speaker 03:
And what's the difference between a criminalist and a crime scene, the criminalistics unit and the crime scene response unit?
[05:41:11] Speaker 17:
The crime scene response unit is any work that is done outside of a lab at a particular crime scene, while a criminalist in the criminalistics unit will examine everything inside of a lab in a controlled setting.
[05:41:24] Speaker 03:
And you're familiar with competency testing and proficiency testing, correct?
[05:41:29] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[05:41:30] Speaker 03:
And have you taken both of those types of tests?
[05:41:33] Speaker 17:
I have.
[05:41:34] Speaker 03:
And have you passed those tests?
[05:41:36] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[05:41:37] Speaker 03:
And have you ever testified before giving your opinion concerning evidence collection and forensic analysis of evidence?
[05:41:45] Speaker 17:
Yes, I have.
[05:41:46] Speaker 03:
Approximately how many times?
[05:41:48] Speaker 17:
50 to 60 times.
[05:41:51] Speaker 03:
Where did you respond on January 8th of 2023 at approximately 852 a.m.?
[05:42:00] Speaker 17:
It was around 845 a.m.
[05:42:03] Speaker 03:
845 AM.
[05:42:04] Speaker 17:
It was 516 Chief Justice Cushing Highway in Cohasset.
[05:42:09] Speaker 03:
And how many floors are in that home?
[05:42:11] Speaker 17:
There's three floors, two livable, an attic, as well as a basement.
[05:42:17] Speaker 03:
And what was your role at that home?
[05:42:20] Speaker 17:
I was assigned to the Crime Scene Response Unit, so I was dedicated to looking for and testing for biological material.
[05:42:28] Speaker 03:
So let's talk about that. What is biological material? What kinds of things are you looking for?
[05:42:34] Speaker 17:
In this particular case, I was looking for blood.
[05:42:38] Speaker 03:
Are you looking for anything else, any other kinds of material while you're at that home?
[05:42:43] Speaker 17:
It could be physical evidence as well as various types of trace materials if needed.
[05:42:49] Speaker 03:
What is trace material?
[05:42:51] Speaker 17:
Trace materials, it can be considered paint, glass, hairs, and fibers.
[05:42:58] Speaker 03:
So where did you begin your work that day?
[05:43:01] Speaker 17:
I began work in the kitchen area on the first floor.
[05:43:05] Speaker 03:
And just generally, how do you determine what you're looking for?
[05:43:10] Speaker 17:
I will speak with the detectives on scene to get a general guideline of what type of investigation this is. Following that, I will make a general test plan for the scene that I am at before testing.
[05:43:24] Speaker 03:
So what were your observations of the kitchen area?
[05:43:30] Speaker 17:
It was clean overall. When looking through the kitchen, we did find a couple bottles of hydrogen peroxide, as well as a knife in a kitchen cabinet above the refrigerator.
[05:43:43] Speaker 03:
OK. At this point, I would like to place into evidence what's already been marked as Exhibit 201, that being SLD 7597. And I would ask to publish that for the jury.
[05:44:09] Speaker 10:
All right. And what is SLD 7597? 7, 5, 9, 7.
[05:44:14] Speaker 03:
Exhibit 201, that being the area that he's discussing in the kitchen, the hydrogen peroxide.
[05:44:23] Speaker 08:
Just a photo of that?
[05:44:24] Speaker 03:
Yes. All right. Is this that area that you're talking about?
[05:44:32] Speaker 17:
Yes, it is.
[05:44:32] Speaker 03:
And I'd next ask to you also described a knife, correct?
[05:44:42] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[05:44:43] Speaker 03:
I'd next ask to show exhibit 202, that being SLD 7606, being a knife, Your Honor, previously marked as exhibit 202, and to publish that for the jury.
[05:45:02] Speaker 11:
You may.
[05:45:07] Speaker 03:
And Mr. Sheehan, do you recognize that?
[05:45:10] Speaker 17:
Yes, I do.
[05:45:17] Speaker 03:
And then more specifically, I'd like to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 203, SLD 7610, which is more specifically a knife. May I publish that for the jury, Your Honor? You may. Is that the knife you're referring to?
[05:45:37] Speaker 17:
Yes, it is.
[05:45:39] Speaker 03:
Thank you. Mr. Sheehan, what kind of testing did you do?
[05:45:44] Speaker 17:
I performed a screening test for blood on the blade of the knife.
[05:45:49] Speaker 03:
And can you describe what the screening test for blood is?
[05:45:54] Speaker 17:
The screening test is a two-step color test where a small portion of question sample is put onto a test swab. And after that, two chemicals are added to this test swab. If there's a bright pink color change, the test is positive. And if there's no color change or to something other than that pink color, the test is negative.
[05:46:14] Speaker 03:
And what were the results?
[05:46:17] Speaker 17:
The screening test for blood was positive on this blade.
[05:46:21] Speaker 03:
And did you perform the screening test anyplace else?
[05:46:27] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[05:46:29] Speaker 03:
And where else did you perform that?
[05:46:33] Speaker 17:
On the hydrogen peroxide bottles as well as on the kitchen sink area.
[05:46:38] Speaker 03:
And what were the results that you found for the kitchen sink and the hydrogen peroxide bottles?
[05:46:43] Speaker 17:
on all of the bottles as well as the sink knobs, the sink basin and the sink drain had all screened negative for blood.
[05:46:52] Speaker 03:
And what can cause positive results besides human blood?
[05:46:57] Speaker 17:
Various types of food materials such as vegetables as well as various types of legumes.
[05:47:05] Speaker 03:
And did you test any other areas in the kitchen?
[05:47:11] Speaker 17:
No.
[05:47:12] Speaker 03:
Did you test inside of the dishwasher?
[05:47:15] Speaker 17:
I did not.
[05:47:16] Speaker 03:
Why did you not test inside the dishwasher?
[05:47:19] Speaker 17:
The nature of a dishwasher is to sanitize anything that is inside with extreme temperature, chemicals, and water. I felt that it wasn't necessary to test on the inside due to those conditions.
[05:47:35] Speaker 03:
Besides the areas that you've already discussed, what other areas did you test on the ground floor of 516 Chief Justice Cushing Highway?
[05:47:46] Speaker 17:
There was also a half bathroom that I examined.
[05:47:49] Speaker 03:
And what did you examine in the half bathroom?
[05:47:51] Speaker 17:
There was a washing machine and a dryer, as well as a sink.
[05:47:56] Speaker 03:
OK. And what were your results?
[05:47:59] Speaker 17:
A screening test for blood was negative on the interior of the dryer and washing machine, as well as on the sink knobs, the sink basin, and drain.
[05:48:08] Speaker 03:
And did you test anything else on that floor?
[05:48:11] Speaker 17:
No.
[05:48:13] Speaker 03:
And then where did you go?
[05:48:14] Speaker 17:
To the second floor bathrooms.
[05:48:17] Speaker 03:
Okay. And did you also go into the bathroom, to the basement area?
[05:48:26] Speaker 17:
I did.
[05:48:27] Speaker 03:
Okay. And did you do testing in the basement area?
[05:48:30] Speaker 17:
Yes, I did.
[05:48:31] Speaker 03:
Okay. So I want to move to the basement for a moment. I'd like to show what's been previously marked as exhibit 34. May I publish that to the jury? You may. Thank you. Can you tell me what this is?
[05:48:49] Speaker 17:
This is the door in the kitchen leading down to the basement.
[05:48:54] Speaker 03:
And then I'd like to show what's been previously marked as exhibit 35. May I publish that to the jury? You may. Thank you. And what is this?
[05:49:03] Speaker 17:
This is the stairwell leading to the basement.
[05:49:07] Speaker 03:
May I publish exhibit 36, please? Yes. And can you tell me what this is?
[05:49:16] Speaker 17:
So if you were standing at the bottom of the stairs looking back up towards the kitchen, this area would be to the left.
[05:49:25] Speaker 03:
May I publish exhibit 37, please? Yes. And what is this area?
[05:49:32] Speaker 17:
The same. If you were to stand at the bottom of the stairs looking towards the kitchen, this area is to the right.
[05:49:40] Speaker 03:
I'd next like to to show what's now being marked as exhibit 204, exhibit 7, SLD 7476, which is a blank area in the basement. May I publish that, Your Honor? You may. Can you please tell me about this area?
[05:50:10] Speaker 17:
This area was in the back right corner of the basement if you were to again stand at the bottom of the stairs. In this area there were several stains that I observed for testing.
[05:50:21] Speaker 03:
And do you recognize those white marks on the floor?
[05:50:29] Speaker 17:
Yes, I do.
[05:50:30] Speaker 03:
And why do you recognize those?
[05:50:32] Speaker 17:
That is small pieces of scale tape that I had put down next to the stains that I wanted to test.
[05:50:38] Speaker 03:
And did you label those?
[05:50:41] Speaker 17:
Yes, I did.
[05:50:43] Speaker 03:
Ms. Gilman, can I ask that you focus in on those, please? And can you tell me, Mr. Sheehan, what those are?
[05:50:56] Speaker 17:
These are stains B, C, D, and E. Stain A is upwards and to the right. These are purple stains that I observed for testing.
[05:51:07] Speaker 03:
Thank you. I'd now like to go to the next exhibit, which has been previously marked as exhibit 205, SLD 7479, which is the ceiling of the basement. May I publish that, Your Honor? You may. Can you tell me about this, Mr. Sheehan?
[05:51:43] Speaker 17:
This is the area of ceiling directly above that small area in the basement.
[05:51:51] Speaker 03:
So what type of testing did you do on the areas that were A through G, the testing that you had shown us through the markers?
[05:52:04] Speaker 17:
On stains A through E, I did the screening tests that I talked about earlier, and all of those results on A through E were positive for blood.
[05:52:22] Speaker 03:
That was the same kind of screening test that you described previously to us?
[05:52:27] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[05:52:29] Speaker 03:
I'd now like to... show what's been marked as exhibit 206, SLD 2482. This is exhibit A. May this be published?
[05:52:46] Speaker 07:
Yes.
[05:52:49] Speaker 03:
Do you recognize this?
[05:52:51] Speaker 17:
Yes, this is stain A.
[05:52:53] Speaker 03:
And this is something you previously explained to us?
[05:52:56] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[05:52:57] Speaker 03:
And was this one of the areas that you tested?
[05:53:00] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[05:53:00] Speaker 03:
And was this positive?
[05:53:02] Speaker 17:
Yes, it was.
[05:53:03] Speaker 03:
And was this done, how did you learn that this was positive?
[05:53:07] Speaker 17:
By doing the screening test.
[05:53:20] Speaker 03:
I'd next like to go to exhibit 207, that being 7487, this being closer up of the purple stains. I'd ask that this be published. You may. Thank you. Do you recognize this, Mr. Sheehan?
[05:53:46] Speaker 17:
Yes, I do.
[05:53:47] Speaker 03:
And if I could ask you to zoom in, Ms. Gilman. And can you tell me what you see in B?
[05:53:56] Speaker 17:
Stained B is the purple staining that I observed for testing.
[05:54:00] Speaker 03:
Thank you. Could you go to C, Ms. Gilman? And can you tell me what you see there?
[05:54:08] Speaker 17:
This is stained C for testing.
[05:54:10] Speaker 03:
Thank you. If you could go to D, Ms. Gilman? And can you tell me what you see there? This is stained D. And could you go to E, Ms. Gilman? And Mr. Sheehan, could you tell me what you see there, please?
[05:54:28] Speaker 17:
And this is stain E. Thank you.
[05:54:33] Speaker 03:
If we could now go to. What's been marked as exhibit 2087536? And I'd ask, and this is the stair, I'd ask that this be published for the jury. You may. Thank you. Can you tell me what this is specifically?
[05:55:06] Speaker 17:
This is the bottom step in the basement. The bottom step was broken.
[05:55:12] Speaker 03:
And specifically, what do you see with your writing on it?
[05:55:18] Speaker 17:
On the right side of the broken piece of stairs, there was an additional purple stain I labeled it as stain F. And if you could zoom in on that, Ms. Gilman?
[05:55:29] Speaker 03:
And is that what you're referring to, Mr. Sheehan?
[05:55:32] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[05:55:33] Speaker 03:
Thank you. Ms. Gilman, I'd ask that you now show exhibit 38. And Mr. Sheehan, what is exhibit 38?
[05:55:47] Speaker 17:
This is their stairwell leading to the kitchen with a support beam directly below it.
[05:55:56] Speaker 03:
Below it or behind it?
[05:55:57] Speaker 17:
Behind it.
[05:55:59] Speaker 03:
Okay. And that support beam is significant, isn't that right?
[05:56:03] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[05:56:05] Speaker 03:
And why is that support beam significant?
[05:56:11] Speaker 17:
There was an additional stain as I label it as stain G that was on the base of the support beam.
[05:56:18] Speaker 03:
Your Honor, I'd next ask that we publish exhibit 209, which has been previously marked, and it's 7556, and that is stain G. You may publish it. Thank you. And what is this?
[05:56:42] Speaker 17:
This is a close-up of stain G. And so I want to be
[05:56:48] Speaker 03:
Clear. What type of testing did you do for A through G?
[05:56:55] Speaker 17:
The screening tests for the presence of blood.
[05:56:57] Speaker 03:
And what results did you get in A through G?
[05:57:01] Speaker 17:
In A through G, all stains had screened positive for blood.
[05:57:06] Speaker 03:
And how did you identify those stains?
[05:57:10] Speaker 17:
Visually.
[05:57:12] Speaker 03:
And when you say visually, what color were they?
[05:57:16] Speaker 17:
All of these stains were purple in color.
[05:57:19] Speaker 03:
And why were they purple?
[05:57:21] Speaker 17:
The crime scene services section during the scene exam was using a chemical called LCV. And this chemical leaves behind a purple residue and is known to turn potential blood stains to the color of purple.
[05:57:34] Speaker 03:
And when had crime scene services used that chemical?
[05:57:38] Speaker 17:
Earlier in the day during the scene exam.
[05:57:41] Speaker 03:
Was that before you began to go into the basement and do your testing?
[05:57:47] Speaker 17:
It was at the same time.
[05:57:48] Speaker 03:
Okay. So were you there when that was happening?
[05:57:52] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[05:57:54] Speaker 03:
And why is LCV used?
[05:57:58] Speaker 17:
The crime scene services section uses it for their scene examinations.
[05:58:03] Speaker 03:
And how does LCV impact your testing?
[05:58:08] Speaker 17:
At the scene, LCV does not have an impact. However, in the lab, it is known to hinder the confirmatory test for blood.
[05:58:18] Speaker 03:
What does that mean?
[05:58:19] Speaker 17:
The confirmatory test is done as a second test on stains and areas that had screened positive for blood. As a result, we can confirm the presence of blood. And this LCV chemical is known to, even on positive samples, give a negative result.
[05:58:35] Speaker 03:
So how do you compensate for that in the lab?
[05:58:39] Speaker 17:
In the lab, even if a stain has tested negative for blood, a sample would still be prepared for DNA testing.
[05:58:48] Speaker 03:
So what do you do with a stain once it has screened positive for blood?
[05:58:56] Speaker 17:
The stain itself would be transferred onto a set of swabs for collection and transported to the lab for analysis.
[05:59:04] Speaker 03:
And how is that done? What is a swab?
[05:59:07] Speaker 17:
The swabs are very similar to almost like a Q-tip on a wooden stick. And each sample is packaged in its own manila envelope and then stored in its own container.
[05:59:18] Speaker 03:
So leaving, do you need a second, you okay? Leaving the second, leaving the basement, can you please describe the second floor of the home?
[05:59:29] Speaker 17:
In the second floor, I examined the two bathrooms, which included a master bathroom from one side of the house and a secondary bathroom to the left.
[05:59:40] Speaker 03:
Okay, and what areas did you test on the second floor?
[05:59:44] Speaker 17:
both of the sinks as well as the showers. There was also a pair of black and blue cleaning squeegees.
[05:59:53] Speaker 03:
Okay. So did you test the drains in the basins?
[05:59:58] Speaker 17:
Yes, I did.
[05:59:59] Speaker 03:
Okay. And how did you do that testing?
[06:00:01] Speaker 17:
The screening test was also the same one that I have been using throughout the day.
[06:00:07] Speaker 03:
And what were your results?
[06:00:09] Speaker 17:
All of these areas had screened negative for blood.
[06:00:13] Speaker 03:
And what time do you think you left the house at 516 Chief Justice Cushing Highway in Cohasset?
[06:00:21] Speaker 17:
Approximately quarter of five in the afternoon.
[06:00:23] Speaker 03:
And were you done with all of your testing?
[06:00:26] Speaker 17:
I was not.
[06:00:27] Speaker 03:
So what happened to the house?
[06:00:29] Speaker 17:
At the end of the day, the decision was made to secure the house and we would return the next day to continue our exams.
[06:00:37] Speaker 03:
And did you return to 516 Chief Justice Cushing Highway?
[06:00:41] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:00:42] Speaker 03:
And when was that?
[06:00:43] Speaker 17:
The following day on January 9th.
[06:00:46] Speaker 03:
And where did you start on January 9th of 2023?
[06:00:49] Speaker 17:
On the second floor in the front left bedroom.
[06:00:55] Speaker 03:
Okay. And what observations did you make to the front left bedroom?
[06:01:02] Speaker 17:
The bedroom itself was clean overall aside from a pile of clothing on the floor. I had also noted an area of, it seems like a white residue and an area that the varnish on the floor appeared to have been removed.
[06:01:18] Speaker 03:
At this time, I would like to show what's been previously marked as Exhibit 210, which is 7765, that bedroom that Mr. Sheehan just described, and publish it for the jury. You may. Thank you. Mr. Sheehan, can you describe what you were talking about with the white residue and the varnish, please?
[06:01:52] Speaker 17:
On the area on the floor directly above the MSP placard number 10 and to the bottom right of the pile of clothing is the white residue on the floor.
[06:02:04] Speaker 03:
Is the white residue that you're discussing?
[06:02:07] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:02:07] Speaker 03:
Okay. And what is the other area that you were discussing?
[06:02:13] Speaker 17:
It was that same area, the white residue, and that same area appeared the varnish on the floor looked like it had been removed.
[06:02:22] Speaker 03:
And how was the varnish flooring for the rest of the room?
[06:02:26] Speaker 17:
It still had a glossy shiny coat to it.
[06:02:30] Speaker 03:
Were there any other varnish issues?
[06:02:33] Speaker 17:
Not that I recall.
[06:02:35] Speaker 03:
And did you do any testing in this room?
[06:02:38] Speaker 17:
I did.
[06:02:39] Speaker 03:
And where did you do testing?
[06:02:41] Speaker 17:
Testing was on two additional red-brown stains that I had observed on one of the window curtains, as well as on the purple stain noted with MSP placard number eight.
[06:02:54] Speaker 03:
And what kind of testing did you do?
[06:02:57] Speaker 17:
The screening test for blood.
[06:02:59] Speaker 03:
And what were your results?
[06:03:01] Speaker 17:
On these stains, I labeled them as stains H and I, as well as MSP placard number eight were all negative.
[06:03:08] Speaker 03:
And H and I were the windows?
[06:03:10] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:03:11] UNKNOWN:
Okay.
[06:03:11] Speaker 03:
And did you go back to the room later?
[06:03:16] Speaker 17:
Later on, yes.
[06:03:17] Speaker 03:
Okay. And why did you go back to that room?
[06:03:21] Speaker 17:
At that time, the decision was made to the crime scene services section was going to remove a portion of the floor. So I removed myself from that area so they could remove the flooring.
[06:03:32] Speaker 03:
And did you direct them to remove the flooring?
[06:03:34] Speaker 17:
No.
[06:03:36] Speaker 03:
And so did you go back after that was done to look at the room?
[06:03:40] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:03:41] Speaker 03:
Okay. And at this time, Your Honor, I would like to show Exhibit 211, which has been previously marked, and that is 7808, and I would ask to publish that with the flooring removed. May? Thank you. Do you recognize this? Yes. Is this the area you're talking about that was removed by crime scene services?
[06:04:13] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:04:14] Speaker 03:
Okay. And did you do further testing?
[06:04:17] Speaker 17:
I did not.
[06:04:18] Speaker 03:
Why not?
[06:04:19] Speaker 17:
There was no visible standing for testing after the crime scene services section had done their exam.
[06:04:28] Speaker 03:
So while crime scene services worked on the floor, what did you do at that time?
[06:04:35] Speaker 17:
I returned to the basement for a second exam.
[06:04:40] Speaker 03:
Why did you return to the basement?
[06:04:42] Speaker 17:
It's not often where I get to re-examine an area that I had already examined, so I wanted to go back to see if I had missed anything.
[06:04:52] Speaker 03:
And what, if anything, were you looking for?
[06:04:55] Speaker 17:
Potential blood stains.
[06:04:58] Speaker 03:
And where did you first go?
[06:05:02] Speaker 17:
At the top of the stairs, looking down, I observed a red-brown stain that I had labeled as stain J on the wall of the stairwell directly into the doorway.
[06:05:14] Speaker 03:
At this time, Your Honor, I'd ask to publish exhibit, which has been previously marked as 212. That would be 7793, that being stain J. You may. Do you recognize this? Yes, this is the area of stain J. Ms. Gilman, can you zoom in just a little bit, please? Thank you. And where is stain J?
[06:05:46] Speaker 17:
Stain J is to the right of the scale. It is not visible in this photo.
[06:05:50] Speaker 03:
OK. And what did you do with the stain?
[06:05:56] Speaker 17:
I did the screening test for the presence of blood.
[06:06:01] Speaker 03:
And what were the results of the screening test?
[06:06:04] Speaker 17:
The screening test was negative.
[06:06:07] Speaker 03:
And then where did you go?
[06:06:08] Speaker 17:
I continued down to the basement.
[06:06:12] Speaker 03:
And where did you go in the basement?
[06:06:15] Speaker 17:
I returned to an area of black trash bags as well as that back right section that I examined the day before.
[06:06:23] Speaker 03:
At this time, I would ask to publish Exhibit 213-7797, the area that Mr. Sheehan just described with the black trash bags. You may. Do you recognize this area?
[06:06:45] Speaker 17:
Yes, I do.
[06:06:47] Speaker 03:
And what is this area that you're talking about?
[06:06:50] Speaker 17:
This is an area in the basement that was a little to the left of the area that I examined the day before towards the back wall.
[06:06:59] Speaker 03:
And I would also ask to publish exhibit 214-7802, which is a close-up of that area. You may. Thank you. What is this area?
[06:07:19] Speaker 17:
This is the stain identified as stain K. And what testing did you do of stain K? I did the screening tests for the presence of blood.
[06:07:32] Speaker 03:
And what was the results of that?
[06:07:34] Speaker 17:
The result was positive.
[06:07:36] Speaker 03:
And what did you then collect?
[06:07:39] Speaker 17:
A sample using a set of swabs was collected from the stain.
[06:07:46] Speaker 03:
Did you collect anything else from the home that day?
[06:07:49] Speaker 17:
That day, no.
[06:07:50] Speaker 03:
Thank you. So what did you do with the swabs that you collected from the house at 516 Chief Justice Cushing Highway and Cohasset on January 8th and 9th of 2023?
[06:08:03] Speaker 17:
I had brought these swabs back along with the knife from above the refrigerator back to the lab to be submitted.
[06:08:11] Speaker 03:
For what?
[06:08:12] Speaker 17:
For DNA analysis.
[06:08:14] Speaker 03:
And what did you do with the swabs at the lab once you got there?
[06:08:20] Speaker 17:
The swabs were submitted into our computer system called LIMS.
[06:08:25] Speaker 03:
And were they given a number?
[06:08:27] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:08:28] Speaker 03:
And what's the lab number that they were given?
[06:08:31] Speaker 17:
The lab number for the case was 23-00596.
[06:08:33] Speaker 03:
And is that a unique lab number for this case?
[06:08:39] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:08:41] Speaker 03:
And how is the lab number kept?
[06:08:43] Speaker 17:
The lab number is kept identified for each individual case in our computer system.
[06:08:51] Speaker 03:
So aside from the collection of evidence at the house, did you then do further work at the Massachusetts State Police Crime Lab on this case?
[06:08:59] Speaker 17:
Yes, I did.
[06:09:01] Speaker 03:
And what procedure do you follow to ensure that you prevent contamination?
[06:09:05] Speaker 17:
In the lab, I work on one item at a time, and in between items of evidence, I will use bleach to clean my work area and any tools that I'm using, as well as wearing PPE, which would include gloves, a mask, and a lab coat.
[06:09:26] Speaker 03:
How do you keep your actual station clean and what do you use on your actual station?
[06:09:33] Speaker 17:
Bleach.
[06:09:34] Speaker 03:
And why do you use bleach?
[06:09:36] Speaker 17:
Bleach is known to destroy DNA.
[06:09:41] Speaker 03:
Do you use any kind of paper on your station?
[06:09:45] Speaker 17:
We use a large piece of paper which we call a butcher paper.
[06:09:50] Speaker 03:
Did you do lab work on the items you brought back from 516 Chief Justice Cushing Highway alone or did you do lab work on other items as well?
[06:10:02] Speaker 17:
Other items as well.
[06:10:05] Speaker 03:
So what was the first item that you examined in this case?
[06:10:10] Speaker 17:
Item number 1-1.
[06:10:11] Speaker 03:
And what was item 1-1?
[06:10:15] Speaker 17:
This was a set of swabs from Red Brown Stain A in the basement.
[06:10:20] Speaker 03:
And what testing was done?
[06:10:22] Speaker 17:
I did a confirmatory test to confirm the presence of blood.
[06:10:27] Speaker 03:
And how does that confirmatory test work?
[06:10:30] Speaker 17:
The test itself is very similar to a pregnancy test, where a small amount of sample is put into a test solution, and then that test solution is put onto a test card. After a period of 10 minutes, if there's one line, the test is negative. If there's two lines, the test is positive.
[06:10:46] Speaker 03:
And what was the result?
[06:10:48] Speaker 17:
confirming the presence of blood was negative.
[06:10:52] Speaker 03:
So what was done with this item?
[06:10:55] Speaker 17:
In this particular case, because the LCV chemical was used at the crime scene and the stains were purple, I preserved the sample for DNA testing as item number 1-1.1.
[06:11:07] Speaker 03:
So that was the number that it was given for DNA?
[06:11:12] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:11:12] Speaker 03:
Okay. And did you assign any of these, any of that sample for DNA testing?
[06:11:19] Speaker 17:
Yes, I did.
[06:11:20] Speaker 03:
And was that the one that you assigned?
[06:11:23] Speaker 17:
Yes, 1-1.1.
[06:11:24] Speaker 03:
Okay. And did you examine item 1-8, the knife from the kitchen?
[06:11:32] Speaker 17:
Yes, I did.
[06:11:33] Speaker 03:
And what testing was done?
[06:11:34] Speaker 17:
I did not do any further testing. I did a collection for potential DNA analysis.
[06:11:41] Speaker 03:
Okay, why didn't you do any testing?
[06:11:43] Speaker 17:
In order for a complete lab exam to be done on an item, there needs to be a visible stain in order to have enough testing for the confirmatory test as well as DNA testing. In this particular case, because there was no visible staining on the blade, the sample needs to be treated as something called quantity-limited or QLIM, where the entire sample needs to be used for DNA testing.
[06:12:07] Speaker 03:
So what was done with this item?
[06:12:09] Speaker 17:
A sample was collected from the knife blade as well as from the handle.
[06:12:14] Speaker 03:
And was it preserved for DNA testing?
[06:12:17] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:12:18] Speaker 03:
OK. And why was that preserved?
[06:12:21] Speaker 17:
To answer any type of forensic questions.
[06:12:25] Speaker 03:
I want to ask you about item 5-1, which was swab K from the basement floor.
[06:12:34] Speaker 18:
Correct.
[06:12:35] Speaker 03:
What testing did you do on swab K from the basement floor?
[06:12:40] Speaker 17:
I did a confirmatory test for the presence of blood.
[06:12:44] Speaker 03:
And what was the result of the confirmatory test?
[06:12:49] Speaker 17:
The confirmatory test was positive in confirming the presence of blood.
[06:12:54] Speaker 03:
And I'm sorry, I should have shown you exhibit 215, exhibit image 1205, which is the knife. May I publish that? So this was the knife that you just told us about, that you was QLIM?
[06:13:23] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:13:24] Speaker 03:
Thank you. And now I'd ask to show Exhibit 216, Image 1066, which is the SWAB K. You may. Thank you. This is the swab that you described?
[06:13:50] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:13:51] Speaker 03:
Thank you. And then you said that it was positive, and I'd ask next to show Exhibit 217, Image 1067, which is the positive test. You may. Thank you. This is that for lack of a better term, like pregnancy tests that you described to us earlier?
[06:14:20] Speaker 18:
Correct.
[06:14:21] Speaker 03:
And this is how you know if the test results are positive, is that right?
[06:14:28] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:14:31] Speaker 03:
So when you're saying that this is indicating positive for human blood, why are you saying that it's indicating positive for human blood?
[06:14:44] Speaker 17:
The test itself, while it does confirm the presence of blood, there are other types of animal blood that will give a positive result, which include ferret blood as well as various types of primates.
[06:14:57] Speaker 03:
So why did you not do the screening test for the swab?
[06:15:02] Speaker 17:
The screening test was done at the crime scene at the house during the original collection of the sample.
[06:15:08] Speaker 03:
And so what did you do with this sample?
[06:15:12] Speaker 17:
The sample was preserved for DNA testing and given item number 5-1.1.
[06:15:16] Speaker 03:
And was this assigned for DNA testing?
[06:15:21] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:15:23] Speaker 03:
And what was item 7-9?
[06:15:24] Speaker 17:
7-9 was a pair of tin snips. 7-9 was a pair of tin snips.
[06:15:36] Speaker 03:
At this time, I would ask to Publish exhibit 218, image 1081 from the lab, the tin snips. You may. And Mr. Sheehan, do you recognize these photos, correct?
[06:16:03] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:16:05] Speaker 03:
And why do you recognize these photos?
[06:16:07] Speaker 17:
These are the photos that I took in the lab of the items. They have the case number, my initials, the item number, and the date I worked on them.
[06:16:16] Speaker 03:
And what testing did you do?
[06:16:19] Speaker 17:
There was no visible staining on the blades, so I did the screening tests for blood, and on the blades was positive.
[06:16:31] Speaker 03:
And why didn't you do the confirmatory testing?
[06:16:33] Speaker 17:
There were no visible stains to do further testing.
[06:16:37] Speaker 03:
So it's the same reason that you gave us before?
[06:16:42] Speaker 17:
Yes, as a QLIM sample.
[06:16:44] Speaker 03:
Thank you. And you said that this was positive for blood?
[06:16:49] Speaker 17:
The blades had screened positive.
[06:16:51] Speaker 03:
And what was done with this item?
[06:16:53] Speaker 17:
A sample was preserved from the blades as well as from the handle.
[06:16:58] Speaker 03:
And what was 7-10?
[06:17:01] Speaker 17:
7-10 was a hacksaw.
[06:17:09] Speaker 03:
I would ask to publish exhibit 219, image 1085. That's the image of the hacksaw? I'm sorry, yes, Your Honor, it's the image of the hacksaw. You may publish it. And what test did you do on the hacksaw?
[06:17:34] Speaker 17:
There were three areas that identified for potential testing on a, it seemed like a tannish brown debris. The first one was on area A, which is on the blade at the end on the opposite side from the handle. Area B was on the frame next to the handle and area C was on the blade where it attaches to the frame adjacent to the handle.
[06:18:02] Speaker 03:
And you did what testing for all of those areas?
[06:18:06] Speaker 17:
I did the screening test for the presence of blood followed by the confirmatory test for blood.
[06:18:11] Speaker 03:
And what were the results on those three areas?
[06:18:14] Speaker 17:
On all three areas, A, B and C, the tests were positive, confirming the presence of blood.
[06:18:20] Speaker 03:
What did you then do?
[06:18:23] Speaker 17:
Samples were preserved from each individual area, A, B and C, as well as from the handle.
[06:18:29] Speaker 03:
What numbers were the samples given?
[06:18:32] Speaker 17:
The sample that I had assigned for DNA testing was from stain C, which was 7-10.3.1, as well as a sample from the handle, which was 7-10.4.1.
[06:18:45] Speaker 03:
I'd next like to talk about 7-11, the hammer. I'd like to show you exhibit 2020 and publish it, that being image 1092, that being the hammer.
[06:19:09] Speaker 10:
You may show that.
[06:19:13] Speaker 03:
Mr. Sheehan, what test did you do on the hammer?
[06:19:20] Speaker 17:
I did the screening test for blood on the hammerhead and face area.
[06:19:25] Speaker 03:
What were the results?
[06:19:26] Speaker 17:
screening test for blood was positive on the hammer face.
[06:19:31] Speaker 03:
And what did you do?
[06:19:32] Speaker 17:
Samples were preserved from the hammer face as well as from the handle.
[06:19:38] Speaker 03:
And why did you only do the screening test here?
[06:19:43] Speaker 17:
There was no visible staining on the hammerhead.
[06:19:46] Speaker 03:
So am I correct in assuming that when you only do the screening test and not the confirmatory test, it is always going to be for that same reason?
[06:19:54] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:19:56] Speaker 03:
Meaning I don't need to keep asking you the same question. Correct. 7-13, the blades and frame from the hatchet, that being exhibit 221, image 1099. Could we please publish that for the jury, Your Honor? What observations did you make of this hatchet?
[06:20:32] Speaker 17:
There was no visible staining. However, on the hatchet head, I did note some sort of greasy and oil-like substance.
[06:20:40] Speaker 03:
Why is that significant to you?
[06:20:42] Speaker 17:
In my experience, whenever a cutting instrument is used on an individual, it can leave behind this greasy and oily substance, which is indicative of fatty tissues.
[06:20:53] Speaker 03:
Overall? What testing did you do?
[06:20:57] Speaker 17:
I did the screening test for the presence of blood on the hatchet head.
[06:21:03] Speaker 03:
What were the results?
[06:21:05] Speaker 17:
The screening test was positive.
[06:21:08] Speaker 03:
And then what did you do?
[06:21:10] Speaker 17:
A sample was preserved from the hatchet head as well as from the handle. The hatchet head was given sample number 7-13.1 and from the handle was 7-13.2.1.
[06:21:23] Speaker 03:
And were any of these assigned for DNA testing?
[06:21:26] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:21:28] Speaker 03:
Both of those?
[06:21:29] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:21:35] Speaker 03:
I'd next like to discuss 7-14, the Craftsman Shears, and I'd be referring and asked to publish exhibit 222, that being image 11 3. May. What testing was done, Mr. Sheehan?
[06:22:04] Speaker 17:
The screening test for blood on the blades and frame of the shears.
[06:22:09] Speaker 03:
And what were the results?
[06:22:10] Speaker 17:
The screening test was positive in this area.
[06:22:13] Speaker 03:
And what was done?
[06:22:15] Speaker 17:
The sample was preserved for potential DNA testing as well as a sample from the handle.
[06:22:23] Speaker 03:
I'd next like to ask you about 7-18, the Tyvek booties. I'd like to refer and publish exhibit 223, image 1223, and publish for the jury the Tyvek booties. You may. Can you tell me what's in this picture?
[06:22:53] Speaker 17:
This is a picture of one of the booties apart of item number 7-18.
[06:22:58] Speaker 03:
How many booties were there?
[06:23:00] Speaker 17:
There were four in total.
[06:23:02] Speaker 03:
Okay. And what else is in this picture?
[06:23:06] Speaker 17:
It appears to be some sort of insulation as well as painters tape.
[06:23:11] Speaker 03:
And what does this picture show? Is it everything or just an example or something else?
[06:23:16] Speaker 17:
Since this item was submitted as four booties, I took an individual picture of how they were packaged separately so that I could keep track of each individual one.
[06:23:28] Speaker 03:
And is that why there's a number two at the bottom of that photo?
[06:23:32] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:23:33] Speaker 03:
And what did you do to this?
[06:23:35] Speaker 17:
I performed the screening test for blood.
[06:23:38] Speaker 03:
And what were the results?
[06:23:40] Speaker 17:
All of the testing was negative.
[06:23:45] Speaker 03:
Moving on to 7-20, the sample from the plastic painter sheets. How many painter sheets were there?
[06:24:01] Speaker 17:
If I recall correctly, there was five.
[06:24:03] Speaker 03:
And was each painter sheet given its own number?
[06:24:07] Speaker 17:
They were originally submitted to the lab all as item number 7-20. And during the fingerprint process, the analyst had removed and given each sheet its own sub number under 720. The one I examined was 7-20.5.
[06:24:24] Speaker 03:
So I'm going to ask to show you and publish exhibit 224, image 1261, the bag of plastic sheeting. Number five. Thank you. Do you recognize this?
[06:24:44] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:24:46] Speaker 03:
And is this what you were describing to us?
[06:24:48] Speaker 17:
Yes, it is. This is the packaging for the plastic sheeting.
[06:24:53] Speaker 03:
And then I'd ask to publish and show you exhibit 225, image 1264. And have you explained the content of the bag?
[06:25:06] Speaker 10:
You may publish that, 1264.
[06:25:09] Speaker 03:
Yes, Your Honor. Can you describe that?
[06:25:14] Speaker 17:
This is one side of the plastic sheeting. In size, it's estimated to be around eight feet by 11 feet.
[06:25:23] Speaker 03:
And what observations did you make?
[06:25:26] Speaker 17:
There were two areas of light red brown staining that I observed. One that I gave as area A was on the bottom right corner and area B was on the top left corner.
[06:25:37] Speaker 03:
And what testing did you do?
[06:25:38] Speaker 17:
On area A, I did the screening tests and confirmatory tests as well as from stain B.
[06:25:47] Speaker 03:
And what were your results?
[06:25:48] Speaker 17:
From stain A, it had screened positive. However, the confirming test was negative. On stain B, the confirming test was positive.
[06:25:59] Speaker 03:
Is there a reason that A is negative and B is positive?
[06:26:03] Speaker 17:
It is possible that stain A was not blood or there was not enough sample on the swabs I had collected for testing to be detected by the test.
[06:26:13] Speaker 03:
So what did you do?
[06:26:14] Speaker 17:
A sample was preserved from the area B, which was 7-20.5.2.1.
[06:26:21] Speaker 03:
And was this assigned for DNA testing?
[06:26:27] Speaker 17:
Yes, it was.
[06:26:31] Speaker 03:
So what were items 9-1 through 9-6?
[06:26:35] Speaker 17:
9-1 through 9-6 were swabs that had been collected from a gray vulvo.
[06:26:41] Speaker 03:
And did you examine those swabs?
[06:26:43] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:26:45] Speaker 03:
And what did you do to preserve those swabs?
[06:26:48] Speaker 17:
All of these swabs were treated as a quantity-limited sample, so no testing was done. They were all cut up and put into tubes for potential DNA testing.
[06:26:58] Speaker 03:
And were any of those assigned for DNA testing?
[06:27:01] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:27:02] Speaker 03:
And which one?
[06:27:04] Speaker 17:
Item number 9-4, which was a swab from trunk mat number 1.
[06:27:12] Speaker 03:
And 9-12, I'd like to talk about now, the jacket, the black jacket, and I refer you and ask to publish exhibit 226, image 1119. You may. Thank you. What observations did you make of this?
[06:27:38] Speaker 17:
There were various like tannish brown stains on the exterior of the jacket.
[06:27:44] Speaker 03:
And were there stains?
[06:27:47] Speaker 17:
Not red brown. They were tannish brown in color.
[06:27:51] Speaker 03:
And did you do any testing?
[06:27:54] Speaker 17:
Yes, I did.
[06:27:55] Speaker 03:
What kind of testing?
[06:27:56] Speaker 17:
I did the screening test for blood on all of these stains as well as from all the unstained areas of the jacket.
[06:28:02] Speaker 03:
And what were your results?
[06:28:04] Speaker 17:
Screening on all of the stains as well as the unstained areas was negative.
[06:28:12] Speaker 03:
I'd now like to move on to item 9-20, the tape with gauze and redbound stain. And I'd like to refer to and publish exhibit 227, image 0899. May I publish that, Your Honor? May. Thank you. Do you recognize that?
[06:28:43] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:28:45] Speaker 03:
And can you explain what this image is of?
[06:28:49] Speaker 17:
This is a picture of the, it actually turned out to be some sort of like tissue paper or paper towels, but I had rolled them out for a picture of the overall item.
[06:29:01] Speaker 03:
And did you make any observations?
[06:29:03] Speaker 17:
Yes, I did.
[06:29:05] Speaker 03:
And what were your observations?
[06:29:07] Speaker 17:
There was red-brown standing on a lot of the item, so I identified two areas as area A, which is on the centre bottom, and area B, which is on the top right.
[06:29:17] Speaker 03:
And what testing did you do?
[06:29:18] Speaker 17:
The screening tests and confirming tests for blood.
[06:29:22] Speaker 03:
And what were the results?
[06:29:24] Speaker 17:
Both of these areas, A and B, had confirmed positive for blood.
[06:29:28] Speaker 03:
And what did you do?
[06:29:30] Speaker 17:
Samples were preserved from both A and B. Sample A was given item number 9-20.1.
[06:29:36] Speaker 03:
And was that assigned for DNA testing?
[06:29:44] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:29:49] Speaker 03:
I want to move on to 9-22, the white towel and refer to exhibit 228, image 1128, and ask you to identify that and ask to publish that to the jury. What observations did you make of this towel?
[06:30:14] Speaker 17:
I noted the red-brown stains on the majority of the towel.
[06:30:18] Speaker 03:
And what testing did you do on this towel?
[06:30:22] Speaker 17:
Identified one of the areas of red brown staining in the center of the towel for testing.
[06:30:28] Speaker 03:
And what kind of testing did you do?
[06:30:30] Speaker 17:
The screening and confirming test for blood.
[06:30:33] Speaker 03:
And what were your results?
[06:30:35] Speaker 17:
This area A in the center had confirmed positive for blood.
[06:30:40] Speaker 03:
And then what did you do?
[06:30:43] Speaker 17:
A sample was preserved from this area A and given item number 9-22.1.1.
[06:30:48] Speaker 03:
And was that a sign for DNA testing?
[06:30:52] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:30:55] Speaker 03:
Moving on to 9-23, I'd like to ask you about and also ask to publish Exhibit 229, Image 1132. May I do that, Your Honor?
[06:31:11] Speaker 10:
Yes, and what's it an image of?
[06:31:13] Speaker 03:
It's an image of the towel, the next towel number two.
[06:31:17] Speaker 10:
Towel number two. You may publish it.
[06:31:20] Speaker 03:
Thank you. Could you tell me about this towel, what your observations are?
[06:31:26] Speaker 17:
I noted the large area of red-brown staining in the center and identified it as red-brown stain A.
[06:31:33] Speaker 03:
And what testing did you do?
[06:31:34] Speaker 17:
The screening and confirming test for blood.
[06:31:37] Speaker 03:
And what were the results?
[06:31:39] Speaker 17:
The sample A had confirmed positive for blood.
[06:31:43] Speaker 03:
And what then did you do after sample A confirmed positive for blood?
[06:31:49] Speaker 17:
A sample was preserved for potential DNA testing.
[06:31:56] Speaker 03:
Moving on to item 9-27, the gray slippers. I would ask at this time to publish exhibit 230, image 8398. 8398?
[06:32:19] Speaker 10:
Yes, Your Honor. And is that the light gray polka dot slippers or the dark gray slippers? The dark gray slippers. Okay. Dark gray slippers may be published.
[06:32:33] Speaker 03:
What observations did you make?
[06:32:36] Speaker 17:
I noted red-brown stains on both sets of slippers, as well as identifying one as stain A, which was on the top of the left slipper, and stain B, which was on the bottom of the left slipper.
[06:32:50] Speaker 03:
I'd also ask to show Exhibit 231, Image 8399. It's also the same dark gray slippers, just the back of the dark gray slippers. You may. Mr. Sheen, can you tell me about this photograph?
[06:33:14] Speaker 17:
This is the bottom or the soles of the dark gray slippers.
[06:33:18] Speaker 03:
So what testing did you do?
[06:33:20] Speaker 17:
The areas A and B, A being on the top of the left slipper and area B on the bottom of the left slipper, I did the screening test and confirming test for blood.
[06:33:33] Speaker 03:
And what were your results?
[06:33:37] Speaker 17:
Both of these areas had confirmed positive for blood.
[06:33:42] Speaker 03:
And then what did you do?
[06:33:43] Speaker 17:
A sample was collected from both of these areas as well as from the unstained areas on the interior of the slippers.
[06:33:51] Speaker 03:
If we could go back to the previous exhibit 230, please. Can you explain where you're talking about the unstained interior?
[06:34:01] Speaker 17:
On the light blue section, I tried to do a collection from the areas that were not stained.
[06:34:08] Speaker 03:
Meaning not red-brown?
[06:34:11] Speaker 17:
Correct.
[06:34:12] Speaker 03:
And why did you take a sample from the interior unstained area?
[06:34:19] Speaker 17:
This is to collect any potential amount of skin cells in this area to help identify a person who may have been wearing the slippers.
[06:34:30] Speaker 03:
And where exactly are you trying to swab at that point?
[06:34:33] Speaker 17:
In this case for the slippers, it would be anywhere it would be high contact with the feet. So of the light blue areas on the sole as well as underneath where the toes would be.
[06:34:44] Speaker 03:
And why were you trying to avoid the red brown stains?
[06:34:47] Speaker 17:
To at least limit any type of cross contamination between the stains and for skin cell collection.
[06:34:55] Speaker 03:
So did you give numbers to any of the areas that you collected?
[06:34:59] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:35:00] Speaker 03:
And what numbers did you give?
[06:35:02] Speaker 17:
From the interior, unstained areas was given item number 9-27.2.1. And from stain A was 9-27.3.1.
[06:35:13] Speaker 03:
And were those two that you just described, those two numbers that you gave us, were those assigned for further DNA testing? Yes. I'd like to talk to you now about 9-28, the apparent hairs, and I'd ask to publish exhibit 232, image 1200, IMG underscore 1200, that being apparent hairs. You may do so. What observations did you make?
[06:35:56] Speaker 17:
On this item, there was a section of red brown staining in the center of the apparent hairs, which I had done the screening and confirming test for blood.
[06:36:07] Speaker 03:
And what were the results?
[06:36:09] Speaker 17:
The red brown stain identified as stain A was confirmed positive to be blood.
[06:36:15] Speaker 03:
And what did you do as a result of that?
[06:36:18] Speaker 17:
A sample was preserved from this and given item number 9-28.1.1.
[06:36:24] Speaker 03:
And was this assigned for DNA testing?
[06:36:27] Speaker 17:
Yes, it was.
[06:36:30] Speaker 03:
Did you do anything else with this item after the blood testing?
[06:36:37] Speaker 17:
Yes, I did.
[06:36:38] Speaker 03:
And what did you do?
[06:36:41] Speaker 17:
I examined two of the hairs for classification.
[06:36:44] Speaker 03:
And how do you classify a hair?
[06:36:47] Speaker 17:
The structure of a hair is very similar to the structure of a number two pencil, where the eraser is the root, the outer yellow portion is the cuticle, the wooden portion is the cortex, with the anagraphite section being the medulla. All four of these areas under a microscope demonstrate various types of characteristics, and it's these characteristics that are used to classify a hair as a human or animal.
[06:37:13] Speaker 03:
And where do you make those observations?
[06:37:15] Speaker 17:
In the lab using a microscope.
[06:37:19] Speaker 03:
And were you able to classify the hairs here?
[06:37:23] Speaker 17:
Yes, I classified two of them.
[06:37:25] Speaker 03:
And how did you classify them?
[06:37:27] Speaker 17:
I pulled randomly two of them out of the clump of apparent hairs to examine in the lab.
[06:37:35] Speaker 03:
And did you classify them as human or animal?
[06:37:40] Speaker 17:
One of them I had classified as being consistent with a human hair, and the second hair was consistent with an animal hair.
[06:37:48] Speaker 03:
I'd ask now to publish exhibit 233, image 0018. That being a hair number one. You may. Mr. Sheen, can you tell me about this image?
[06:38:11] Speaker 17:
This is the root of the hair that I identified as being consistent with a human hair.
[06:38:17] Speaker 03:
And you said this was the root?
[06:38:20] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:38:21] Speaker 03:
And can you tell me why you characterized it as human hair?
[06:38:26] Speaker 17:
Due to the nature and the shape of the root itself, as well as other characteristics from the shaft and the medulla.
[06:38:36] Speaker 03:
I'd ask to publish the next exhibit 234, image 0022, that being hair number two. You may. Mr. Sheehan, what is this hair?
[06:38:52] Speaker 17:
This is the root area of the second hair that I identified as being consistent with an animal hair.
[06:38:58] Speaker 03:
And can you explain why you believe this was, you were able to characterize this as an animal hair?
[06:39:07] Speaker 17:
Along with the shape of the root and the characteristics of the scales and the medulla on this item identified as being consistent with an animal hair.
[06:39:23] Speaker 03:
I'd like to now move on to 9-30, the sample from the stain on the wipe from bag 4 and the sponge. And I'd ask to publish exhibit 235, image 1195. And generally, what is 1195 of? The sample from the stain on the wipe from bag 4 and the sponge. You may publish it. Do you recognize this, Mr. Sheehan?
[06:39:57] Speaker 17:
Yes, I do.
[06:39:58] Speaker 03:
And what observations did you make?
[06:40:03] Speaker 17:
There were red-brown stains on the wipe as well as there being these yellow-brown debris on the sponge.
[06:40:11] Speaker 03:
What tests did you do?
[06:40:12] Speaker 17:
I did the screening test and confirming tests for blood on the wipe portion and the screening test on the yellow-brown debris on the sponge.
[06:40:22] Speaker 03:
And what were the results?
[06:40:23] Speaker 17:
on the area A from the wipe had confirmed positive for blood, and the yellow-brown debris on the sponge was positive as well, and that was preserved as a QLIM sample.
[06:40:35] Speaker 03:
And then what did you do?
[06:40:38] Speaker 17:
Samples were preserved for potential DNA testing.
[06:40:44] Speaker 03:
I now would like to move on to 9-31, the cutting of the piece of rug from bag 5, that being image 1110. And that's exhibit 236. And I'd ask to publish that, Your Honor. You may do so. Do you recognize this?
[06:41:14] Speaker 17:
Yes, I do.
[06:41:16] Speaker 03:
And what testing did you, what observations did you make?
[06:41:21] Speaker 17:
This is the underside of the piece of carpet that had red brown stains on it.
[06:41:28] Speaker 03:
And what testing did you do?
[06:41:30] Speaker 17:
I did the screening test and confirming test for blood.
[06:41:33] Speaker 03:
And what were the results?
[06:41:35] Speaker 17:
The stained area had confirmed positive for blood.
[06:41:39] Speaker 03:
And as a result, what did you do?
[06:41:41] Speaker 17:
A sample was preserved from this item as item number 9-31.1.
[06:41:45] Speaker 03:
And was this assigned for DNA testing?
[06:41:50] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:41:56] Speaker 03:
Looking next at 9-32, the Tyvak suit. I'd ask to show, to publish exhibit 237, image 8388.
[06:42:30] Speaker 10:
You may publish that, 8388.
[06:42:38] Speaker 03:
Mr. Sheehan, what observations did you make of the Tyvek suit?
[06:42:44] Speaker 17:
There were several areas of red-brown staining, both on the exterior and the interior.
[06:42:52] Speaker 03:
I'd also like to publish exhibit 238, image 8390, which is another angle, another side of the Tyvak suit. You may. Do you recognize this, Mr. Shan?
[06:43:09] Speaker 17:
Yes, I do.
[06:43:10] Speaker 03:
And can you tell us what you see here?
[06:43:12] Speaker 17:
There was two areas of red-brown staining on the leg portions.
[06:43:18] Speaker 03:
And I'd also like to show exhibit 239, image 8391, another image of the Tyvek suit. You may. And can you tell us what you see here?
[06:43:36] Speaker 17:
This is the exterior front of the Tyvek suit.
[06:43:41] Speaker 03:
And finally, exhibit 240, image 8392, a bag of the Tyvek suit. Ms. Gellman, 8392. Thank you, Ms. Gellman. And do you recognize that?
[06:44:14] Speaker 17:
Yes, this is the tag on the Tyvek suit.
[06:44:17] Speaker 03:
Thank you. So what observations? You told me about your observations. I apologize. What test did you do?
[06:44:30] Speaker 17:
I identified four areas of rib-round stands for further testing, A through D. A and B were on the exterior front pant legs. Area C was on the back right ankle, and area D was on the interior right sleeve.
[06:44:47] Speaker 03:
And so what testing did you do?
[06:44:49] Speaker 17:
The screening test and confirming test for blood.
[06:44:52] Speaker 03:
And what were your results?
[06:44:54] Speaker 17:
On all four areas, A through D had confirmed positive for blood.
[06:44:58] Speaker 03:
And I'd ask to show exhibit 241, image 8393, that showing those results. You may show the results. As a result, what did you do?
[06:45:16] Speaker 17:
Samples were preserved from each one of these areas, as well as from the interior sleeve cuffs of the Tyvek suit.
[06:45:23] Speaker 03:
And why did you take a sample from the interior sleeve cuff?
[06:45:27] Speaker 17:
This is very similar to the reason why collecting from the unstained areas of the slippers. This is an area of high contact with the skin, so this was done for the collection of skin cells to identify a person who may have been wearing it.
[06:45:41] Speaker 03:
And were any of these assigned for DNA testing?
[06:45:44] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:45:46] Speaker 03:
And can you tell me which ones were assigned for DNA testing?
[06:45:50] Speaker 17:
Samples number 9-32.1.1 was the sample from the interior sleeve cuffs. 9-32.2.1 was the sample from stain A. And 9-32.5.1 was the sample from stain D on the interior sleeve.
[06:46:09] Speaker 03:
Moving on to 16. Dash one, the rug. I'd ask to show you exhibit 242, image 1143, and publish that to the jury.
[06:46:31] Speaker 10:
You may publish that image to the jury.
[06:46:36] Speaker 03:
What observations did you make of this rug?
[06:46:39] Speaker 17:
I noted an area of red-brown staining on the left portion of this piece of carpet.
[06:46:45] Speaker 03:
And what testing did you do?
[06:46:48] Speaker 17:
The screening test and confirming test.
[06:46:50] Speaker 03:
And what were the results?
[06:46:52] Speaker 17:
The stain area A had confirmed positive for blood.
[06:46:57] Speaker 03:
What did you do?
[06:46:58] Speaker 17:
A sample was collected for potential DNA testing.
[06:47:04] Speaker 03:
Moving on to 16.2, I'd ask to publish exhibit 243, image 1148, different 16.2, that being a sample from portion of rug 2.
[06:47:23] Speaker 10:
All right, you can publish that, 1148.
[06:47:30] Speaker 03:
What did you note on this? What observations did you make?
[06:47:33] Speaker 17:
There were several areas that identified for testing stains A through F. And what testing did you do? The screening tests and confirming tests.
[06:47:46] Speaker 03:
And what were your results?
[06:47:47] Speaker 17:
On stains B through F the screening test was negative and on stain A it had confirmed positive for blood.
[06:47:57] Speaker 03:
I'd like to talk about 16-3, that being rug number three. I'd like to show you and publish to the jury Exhibit 244, image 1153. You may do so. What observations do you make, Mr. Sheehan?
[06:48:25] Speaker 17:
I observed a large amount of red-brown stains. On the left portion of the carpet is where I identified as stain A.
[06:48:32] Speaker 03:
And what testing did you do?
[06:48:34] Speaker 17:
The screening and confirming tests for blood.
[06:48:37] Speaker 03:
And what were your results?
[06:48:38] Speaker 17:
The area of stain A had confirmed positive for blood.
[06:48:42] Speaker 03:
And as a result, what did you do?
[06:48:45] Speaker 17:
A sample was collected for potential DNA analysis.
[06:48:50] Speaker 03:
Moving to 16-4, a sample of rug number four. I'd ask to publish exhibit 245, image 1158. You may publish 1158. Thank you. What observations did you make, Mr. Sheehan?
[06:49:14] Speaker 17:
There was an area of red-brown staining on the bottom of this piece that identified for testing as stain A.
[06:49:22] Speaker 03:
So you did do testing?
[06:49:25] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:49:27] Speaker 03:
And what were the results of your testing?
[06:49:29] Speaker 17:
On this area, stain A had confirmed positive for blood.
[06:49:33] Speaker 03:
And did you preserve it for DNA?
[06:49:35] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:49:39] Speaker 03:
Moving to 16-5. I'd ask to publish Exhibit 246, Image 1163, Your Honor. You may do so. Thank you. Mr. Sheehan, what observations did you make?
[06:50:05] Speaker 17:
There was an area of red-brown staining on the left portion of the carpet.
[06:50:09] Speaker 03:
And what testing did you do?
[06:50:11] Speaker 17:
I did the screening and confirming test for blood.
[06:50:13] Speaker 03:
And what were the results?
[06:50:15] Speaker 17:
This stained area A had confirmed positive for blood.
[06:50:19] Speaker 03:
And as a result of that, what did you do?
[06:50:22] Speaker 17:
A sample was preserved for potential DNA testing.
[06:50:26] Speaker 03:
Moving to 16-6, rug number 6. I'd ask at this time to publish exhibit 247, image 1176 from rug number 6.
[06:50:42] Speaker 10:
You may publish that image 1176.
[06:50:45] Speaker 03:
Thank you. What observations did you make?
[06:50:49] Speaker 17:
I noted the red brown stains on the bottom left corner of this piece of carpet.
[06:50:54] Speaker 03:
And what testing did you do?
[06:50:56] Speaker 17:
The screening and confirming test.
[06:50:58] Speaker 03:
What were the results of your testing?
[06:51:00] Speaker 17:
This area had confirmed positive for blood.
[06:51:03] Speaker 03:
And what did you do?
[06:51:05] Speaker 17:
I preserved a sample from this area for potential DNA testing.
[06:51:12] Speaker 03:
Moving on to 16-7, rug number seven. I'd ask to publish exhibit 248, image 1180. You may publish image 1180, rug seven. And Your Honor, in that same vein, from rug number seven, the other side is 1181, exhibit 249, if I could also use that one as well.
[06:51:44] Speaker 10:
You may, the reverse side is in evidence now, 249, 1181.
[06:51:52] Speaker 03:
Starting with this image, can you please tell me what you see?
[06:51:56] Speaker 17:
I noted an area of red-brown stains as stain A on the bottom left corner, as well as an area of stain B that is in the center of the white powdery residue that you see.
[06:52:09] Speaker 03:
And if we could just look at the back as well. What observations did you make here?
[06:52:16] Speaker 17:
On the top left corner is the backside of that stained area A, and in the center with the white powdery residue, the opposite side was stain B.
[06:52:26] Speaker 03:
And what testing did you do?
[06:52:28] Speaker 17:
On both stains A and B, I did the screening and confirming test for blood.
[06:52:34] Speaker 03:
And what were the results of your testing?
[06:52:37] Speaker 17:
Both stains A and B confirmed positive for blood.
[06:52:40] Speaker 03:
And were numbers assigned to these samples?
[06:52:43] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:52:45] Speaker 03:
And what were those?
[06:52:46] Speaker 17:
For stain B, which I had sent to DNA for testing, was 16-7.2.1.
[06:52:54] Speaker 03:
I should have said, as a result of their being positive, did you take a sample to send to DNA?
[06:52:59] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:53:00] Speaker 03:
Okay. And so what were those numbers?
[06:53:02] Speaker 17:
For the area from stain B was 16-7.2.1.
[06:53:08] Speaker 03:
And was anything assigned to go to the DNA testing? Was that 16.7.2.1?
[06:53:15] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:53:17] Speaker 03:
Was anything else with this item?
[06:53:20] Speaker 17:
Yes, I collected a small amount of the white powdery substance to send to another unit for identification.
[06:53:32] Speaker 03:
Looking at 16.12, 16-12, I apologize. and I'd ask to publish exhibit 250, image 1187, that being hair. May I do that, Your Honor? You may do so. What did you do to examine this?
[06:54:08] Speaker 17:
I examined five random hairs from this clump for identification.
[06:54:12] Speaker 03:
And what tool did you use?
[06:54:14] Speaker 17:
I used a set of tweezers to remove it from the sample and then visualize the items underneath a microscope.
[06:54:22] Speaker 03:
And what classification did you make?
[06:54:25] Speaker 17:
On all five pieces of hair that I removed, all five had classified as being consistent with a human hair.
[06:54:33] Speaker 03:
And you used the same technique that you described to us earlier?
[06:54:38] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:54:41] Speaker 03:
So after you finished with the testing for blood and looking at the hairs, what did you do next?
[06:54:49] Speaker 17:
I would write my report for all my findings as well as assign DNA items for analysis.
[06:54:56] Speaker 03:
And what is the next round of testing at your laboratory?
[06:55:01] Speaker 17:
The next section for DNA samples would be the DNA unit.
[06:55:05] Speaker 03:
And what does go on for testing?
[06:55:07] Speaker 17:
any samples that are assigned by the criminalist working on the case.
[06:55:12] Speaker 03:
And how is the determination made as to which items to send for DNA testing?
[06:55:17] Speaker 17:
When the criminalist is examining the case, they try to select the samples that have the most amount of forensic relevance and answer as many forensic questions as possible.
[06:55:26] Speaker 03:
And are there limits as to the number of items that can be sent forward for DNA testing?
[06:55:32] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:55:33] Speaker 03:
Why is that?
[06:55:34] Speaker 17:
For every single case, there are tons of samples that are collected for DNA. It would create a huge backlog in the lab system, which is why we try to select the most forensically relevant samples to answer as many questions as possible on the first round of testing.
[06:55:51] Speaker 03:
So were items in this case sent for DNA testing?
[06:55:56] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:55:57] Speaker 03:
And so you've identified those items as we went along, you gave the number and you said which items you sent along for DNA testing, is that right?
[06:56:08] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:56:09] Speaker 03:
In addition to those items, was there one other item that was also sent for DNA testing?
[06:56:15] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:56:16] Speaker 03:
And do you know what that was?
[06:56:18] Speaker 17:
This was item number 16-13, which was an unknown tissue.
[06:56:25] Speaker 03:
And was all the DNA testing done in one round?
[06:56:30] Speaker 17:
No, it was not.
[06:56:31] Speaker 03:
Were there multiple rounds of DNA testing that were done here?
[06:56:34] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:56:36] Speaker 03:
And who does that next round of testing?
[06:56:38] Speaker 17:
No, that would be the analysts in the DNA unit.
[06:56:41] Speaker 03:
And where do the original physical items get stored after you finish your work on them, Mr. Sheehan?
[06:56:48] Speaker 17:
The original physical items are returned to the investigating agencies while all of the DNA samples are preserved in our long-term storage area.
[06:56:59] Speaker 03:
If I might just have one moment. What is Luminal?
[06:57:31] Speaker 17:
Luminal is a type of test that is used by various agencies. It's very similar to that of LCV.
[06:57:39] Speaker 03:
And does fingerprint testing affect DNA testing?
[06:57:45] Speaker 17:
No, it does not.
[06:57:46] Speaker 03:
Does fingerprint testing affect your testing?
[06:57:50] Speaker 17:
There's various chemicals that are used for testing, but again, those are known by the unit and the lab, so measures are taken in order to still do DNA testing in case of negative results.
[06:58:03] Speaker 03:
And what effect of applying cleaning products to blood stains would impact your testing?
[06:58:11] Speaker 17:
If the concentration of bleach or cleaning agent was high enough and was used on a sample long enough, it could degrade and destroy any type of DNA that would be on a sample or area.
[06:58:32] Speaker 10:
Thank you. Cross examination.
[06:58:41] Speaker 26:
Good afternoon.
[06:58:42] Speaker 17:
Good afternoon.
[06:58:51] Speaker 27:
So you appear at the home on January 8th, correct?
[06:58:59] Speaker 18:
Yes.
[06:59:00] Speaker 27:
And that was the first time you went there?
[06:59:02] Speaker 18:
Correct.
[06:59:03] Speaker 27:
And before you got there, there were other people from the Mass State Police. They'd already been there.
[06:59:09] Speaker 17:
In previous days, when I had responded to the house, we had all arrived at the same time.
[06:59:14] Speaker 27:
Okay. But you understand, don't you, Mr. Sheehan, that there had been multiple officers in and out of that house over a period of multiple days?
[06:59:23] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[06:59:23] Speaker 27:
And you understand, don't you, Mr. Sheehan, that those officers had gone in and out of that house not wearing any protective garments, not wearing any protective booties. They went and they inspected certain rooms of that house, correct? Yes, and you understand don't you that when you. go to collect samples from a scene like this from the home. It was very important to maintain the integrity of the home before you collected samples, correct?
[06:59:50] Speaker 18:
Correct.
[06:59:51] Speaker 27:
Now, believe me, I'm not questioning your expertise, your training, your experience. Let's be clear about that. But when you try to make conclusions about a sample that you collected in a certain part of this home and then another sample that you collected in another part of the home, Knowing that other people had been in and out of that home in the days leading up to you, getting there, you can't tell this jury how certain samples, or biological samples, were first deposited in certain areas of that home.
[07:00:28] Speaker 17:
No, I cannot.
[07:00:29] Speaker 27:
So, let's talk a little bit about that bedroom area that you told us about. You recall testifying that there was something that looked like white residue or something like that on the flooring of one of the bedrooms upstairs?
[07:00:47] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:00:48] Speaker 27:
And you noticed that on January 9th of 2023, didn't you?
[07:00:52] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:00:53] Speaker 27:
And in fact, in your report and your notes you wrote, you specifically stated that when you were there on January 8th, you didn't see that, correct?
[07:01:04] Speaker 17:
I don't recall if that was in my report or not.
[07:01:07] Speaker 27:
OK, was it in your notes?
[07:01:09] Speaker 17:
No.
[07:01:11] Speaker 27:
All right, let's come back to that in a minute. On January 8th, were you up in that bedroom where that area was, where now you told us about the white residence?
[07:01:28] Speaker 18:
No.
[07:01:29] Speaker 27:
So you understand, though, that other mass state police have been up in that room?
[07:01:35] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:01:36] Speaker 27:
And you understand that when you went up on the ninth, that that's when you first saw what you have described to this jury, correct? Yes. Now, as a result of the observations that you made in that room, it's our understanding then that you caused, well, that's not entirely accurate, but in any event, there was flooring dug up in or around that area that you saw the white residue, correct?
[07:02:04] Speaker 18:
Correct.
[07:02:05] Speaker 27:
And that area covered that area that looks like from the exhibits, that area that was between the clothing, the pile of clothing and placard tin, correct?
[07:02:16] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:02:17] Speaker 27:
And then you call, well, I keep saying that, did you ask that the flooring be removed?
[07:02:24] Speaker 18:
No.
[07:02:24] Speaker 27:
Okay, someone else did that.
[07:02:26] Speaker 18:
Correct.
[07:02:26] Speaker 27:
But then after that flooring was removed, you went up and examined that area where the flooring happened. correct a reason isn't there why someone decided to remove that floor there's a reason for that right yes and the reason would be because they were looking to see if there was biological evidence between the wood flooring plants, correct?
[07:02:54] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:02:54] Speaker 27:
And that is a common thing that you have seen in your examination of flooring, that something like fluid blood or fluid biological, some other substance flows between the crevices where the flooring butts up against each other, correct? Yes. When the flooring is then pulled up, now what you're looking for is to see if any of the biological fluid had deposited itself not only in the joints between the flooring planks, but then back on the subfloor where the flooring planks lay, correct?
[07:03:33] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:03:33] Speaker 27:
And after a thorough examination, after all of those flooring planks were dug up on that floor, you didn't find any evidence whatsoever of any biological substance that tested positive for blood. find any evidence of biological substance that tested for anything else up there after they ripped out that floor, correct?
[07:03:55] Speaker 18:
Correct.
[07:03:56] Speaker 27:
There is nothing in the examination of that bedroom that indicates that any biological substance whatsoever had been deposited on the floor, is it?
[07:04:06] Speaker 18:
Yes, that is correct.
[07:04:11] Speaker 27:
Now is that the same room that had a hole in the ceiling?
[07:04:16] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:04:16] Speaker 27:
And what did you do to test any of that area surrounding that hole in the ceiling in that same bedroom?
[07:04:24] Speaker 17:
I did not test it.
[07:04:25] Speaker 27:
Did you go up into the attic and examine the attic that surrounded that area where that hole was?
[07:04:31] Speaker 17:
No, I did not. From what I recall, it looked like it was undisturbed.
[07:04:36] Speaker 27:
What do you mean by that?
[07:04:37] Speaker 17:
The insulation area.
[07:04:39] Speaker 27:
The insulation area in the ceiling?
[07:04:43] Speaker 17:
Yes, directly above the hole.
[07:04:50] Speaker 27:
was the insulation had been undisturbed, correct?
[07:04:54] Speaker 18:
Correct.
[07:04:55] Speaker 27:
And so if someone had been up in the attic, and based on your experience in training, you would have expected maybe to see that insulation having been disturbed. Is that what you mean?
[07:05:07] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:05:09] Speaker 27:
And then did anybody point out to you, Mr. Sheehan, that the parts of the ceiling from the hole had been maintained in a drawer in that same building?
[07:05:20] Speaker 17:
Yes, they did.
[07:05:22] Speaker 27:
And did you ever examine those pieces of ceiling?
[07:05:27] Speaker 17:
I recall visualizing them, but they had no standing on them, so I did not go any further with those.
[07:05:32] Speaker 27:
So just focusing now on the hole in the ceiling, you didn't see anything of any forensic significance. Can I put it that way? Yes. And when you noticed the insulation in or around that hole, you didn't see that it had been disturbed the bits and pieces that had been maintained in the drawer of the cabinet, the nightstand, whatever we want to call it, in that room, and you didn't see anything forensically significant about those pieces either, did you?
[07:06:08] Speaker 18:
Correct.
[07:06:09] Speaker 27:
And then as we talk now about the flooring that was pulled out and examined, in that same room, you didn't find anything forensically significant.
[07:06:23] Speaker 17:
I'm not sure they had screen negative for blood.
[07:06:38] Speaker 27:
It's fair to say, isn't it, sometimes you see red-brown stains when you're examining a scene, and since they look and are characterized as red-brown stains, in your report you use RBS. Am I right about that?
[07:06:51] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:06:52] Speaker 27:
You see something and you call it RBS, and then you go to test it, and it turns out that it's negative, correct?
[07:06:59] Speaker 17:
Yes, that's fairly common.
[07:07:01] Speaker 27:
Right. And so, was there anything else in that bedroom that was forensically significant to you when you examined that?
[07:07:12] UNKNOWN:
No.
[07:07:13] Speaker 27:
Mr. Sheehan, you are aware of the fact that the baseboard, some of the baseboard in that same bedroom was removed all the way from the wall, right?
[07:07:26] Speaker 17:
No, I'm not aware of that.
[07:07:27] Speaker 27:
Was baseboard removed in any of the rooms in that home, this check to see if there was biological evidence behind the baseboard?
[07:07:36] Speaker 18:
I'm not sure.
[07:07:38] Speaker 27:
You're not saying it didn't happen. You're just saying to the best of your knowledge, you didn't do it, correct? Correct. So as you sit here today in front of these jurors, it's fair to say that there is nothing in that bedroom that indicates
[07:08:08] Speaker 18:
Correct.
[07:08:11] Speaker 27:
And you have no idea when you talk about that white residue on the floor that you saw on January 9th, you have no idea what caused it, correct?
[07:08:21] Speaker 17:
No.
[07:08:22] Speaker 27:
And you don't know if that was caused by... Let me back up a little. Did you describe that on direct examination as if the varnish on the floor had been removed?
[07:08:34] Speaker 17:
Yes, that's what it appeared to be.
[07:08:35] Speaker 27:
And did you use the word removed?
[07:08:38] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:08:39] Speaker 27:
But it's true, isn't it, that you could characterize the absence of the sheen of the varnish that it could have just been the result of wear and tear, correct?
[07:08:53] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:08:54] Speaker 27:
And in a bedroom like that, where you have a lot of people coming in and out, and it's in the open area of the room, that could be a result of wear and tear from kids playing, adults walking back and forth over periods of time, correct?
[07:09:11] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:09:24] Speaker 27:
Did that bedroom have a closet to it?
[07:09:28] Speaker 17:
From what I recall, it was a closet, but there was no doors on it, if I recall correctly.
[07:09:33] Speaker 27:
And did you examine the interior of the closet?
[07:09:36] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:09:36] Speaker 27:
Did you find anything of forensic significance in the interior of the closet?
[07:09:40] Speaker 17:
No.
[07:09:40] Speaker 27:
Did you find anything of forensic significance on the door trim or anything of the sort?
[07:09:47] Speaker 17:
I did not.
[07:09:52] Speaker 27:
When you examined that room, Mr. Sheehan, was there a bed in there?
[07:09:57] Speaker 17:
Yes, there was.
[07:09:59] Speaker 27:
And did you examine the bed?
[07:10:02] Speaker 17:
Visually, yes.
[07:10:04] Speaker 27:
Did you do any testing on any parts of the bed?
[07:10:07] UNKNOWN:
No.
[07:10:09] Speaker 27:
Did you notice that on the bed, in that bedroom, there was in fact sheets and bedding sealed intact there, correct?
[07:10:19] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:10:20] Speaker 27:
And did you cause to test any of the bedding on that bed, in that room?
[07:10:25] Speaker 17:
No, there were no visible stains for testing.
[07:10:28] Speaker 27:
And it's fair to say, isn't it, when you're examining a scene like this, even though you don't see visible stains, you may, based on your training experience, think, well, maybe I should just check that to see if there's anything there that I can't see with my, just with my eyes, correct? Correct. Now, you have tools, don't you? You have chemicals. You have processes that you've been trained on so you can see, if you can detect, the presence of a vial
[07:10:59] Speaker 17:
Yes. It's called a general screen. This general screen process could be done on any area of surface as long as it's hard or even in fabric of nature. It's called a general screen because there's no visible staining on it.
[07:11:20] Speaker 27:
Yes.
[07:11:24] Speaker 17:
Yes. It means non-visible.
[07:11:28] Speaker 27:
to say that you have been trained and you have experience where you can try to find or detect the presence of occult blood, correct?
[07:11:37] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:11:38] Speaker 27:
And in this case, in this home, in this room, you didn't even see any cause or any reason for you to check if there was occult blood anywhere in this room.
[07:11:53] Speaker 18:
Correct.
[07:12:16] Speaker 27:
Now I want to talk to you a little bit about some other rooms in this house on the second floor. Did you examine other rooms in this house that were up on the second floor?
[07:12:25] Speaker 17:
Only the bathrooms.
[07:12:27] Speaker 27:
And there were two bathrooms, correct?
[07:12:29] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:12:30] Speaker 27:
And was one, can you just tell us where the bathrooms were on the second floor?
[07:12:36] Speaker 17:
On the second floor, there was one directly in front of the stairs as you reached the second floor, and then the second one was in one of the other bedrooms.
[07:12:45] Speaker 27:
I thought I heard you say, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that with regards to both bathrooms, you examined and tested the handle faucets, correct?
[07:12:57] Speaker 17:
Yes. How did you do that? Generally to see if there was any type of biological material on a person's hands if they had used the sink to try to wash off.
[07:13:07] Speaker 27:
And in your experience in training and in examining the sink, on the handles of the sinks, correct?
[07:13:18] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:13:19] Speaker 27:
And that's true, isn't it, especially where someone has tried to clean up a scene where something bad has happened, correct?
[07:13:26] Speaker 18:
Correct.
[07:13:27] Speaker 27:
And in this case, in both bathrooms on the second floor, on the same floor where that room was that had the hole in the ceiling, you found no evidence of any biological or forensically significant biological sample in either one of these beds correct correct it's fair to say isn't it that based on your training experience yes uh... if you're washing hands that's where all of the water would go And in fact, what happens is, isn't it that if someone has a biological substance on their hands and they're trying to hide it or get rid of it, and they wash their hands, that biological substance can flow down the drain, but it also can remain in the seams where the drain connects to the sink, correct?
[07:14:19] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:14:24] Speaker 27:
where that's where you find examples of biological substance that rests between the seams, I'm going to call them, and that's not a good word, but a seam to where a drain fits into the seam, right? Yes. Because people can try to clean that up. If they want to hide where something happened, they can try to clean that up. But they don't think that that, well, when they try to clean it up, they might not be able to clean them when in between the seams of the sink drain and the sink, correct?
[07:14:57] Speaker 17:
Yes, I would say that's accurate.
[07:15:00] Speaker 27:
And that's why you look here, right?
[07:15:01] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:15:02] Speaker 27:
Because even though someone might try to clean up, they don't know that that's where the biological substance may rest, correct? Correct. And that same thing, that same process of investigation that you've been trained and you have experience doing it, that was kind of the same thinking you used When you went up and looked at the pulled up floor that someone had pulled up and you looked at the flooring and the subfloor to see if anything had been deposited there, someone might not have known could have gotten there even though they tried to clean the floor, right?
[07:15:34] Speaker 18:
Correct.
[07:15:42] Speaker 27:
And when we talk about the drains and the faucets of those bathrooms upstairs, Are you including the drains and faucets that would be associated with a shower or bathtub that was in those bathrooms?
[07:15:55] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:15:56] Speaker 26:
And once again, after all the testing, you found nothing in the bathroom, correct?
[07:16:02] Speaker 18:
Correct. It was forensically significant, correct? Yes.
[07:16:11] Speaker 27:
So now I want to ask you, as you move down from the second floor of this home, and you move down the stairway. Was there, in fact, a main stairway that came down from that secondary you just told these jurors about?
[07:16:30] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:16:31] Speaker 27:
And did you examine the stairway that led down?
[07:16:34] Speaker 17:
Yes.
[07:16:35] Speaker 27:
Was that, if you know, Mr. Sheen, were the stairs that traveled from the second floor down to the first floor where they would or part of the apartment or anything
[07:16:48] Speaker 17:
If I recall correctly, they were hardwood.
[07:16:50] Speaker 27:
Okay. And you examined those stairs to see if there was any evidence of one?
[07:16:54] Speaker 18:
Yes, visually.
[07:16:56] Speaker 27:
And you saw nothing?
[07:16:57] Speaker 18:
Correct.
[07:16:58] Speaker 27:
And you saw nothing on the walls that bordered those stairs? Correct. And you saw nothing on the railings that would border the stairs, correct?
[07:17:08] Speaker 18:
Correct.
[07:17:13] Speaker 27:
So now, we've moved from the second floor, the bedroom with the hole in the ceiling, the two bathrooms upstairs, all the way down the stairs, and right as, if we think about that now, so far, we haven't found anything whatsoever, forensically, in that home for those areas.
[07:17:31] Speaker 18:
Correct.
[07:17:40] Speaker 10:
Is that a good place to stop for today?
[07:17:42] Speaker 27:
It's the best place. Yes.
[07:17:45] Speaker 10:
So, George, I'll send you on your way for the night. I hope you're bundled for today. It's going to be cold. I think it's getting colder tonight. So make sure you're bundled for the morning. I remind you, go on any social media or any news media. Don't speak to anyone about this case. Don't do any research about the case. Continue to have open minds as you evaluate the evidence.
[07:18:25] Speaker 25:
Have a good night. All rise in court please. Close your notebooks. Follow me.
[07:19:02] Speaker 10:
I'll see at the side of the bench.
[07:21:41] Speaker 12:
.
[07:21:54] UNKNOWN:
.
[07:22:18] Speaker 12:
you .
[07:23:22] UNKNOWN:
.
[07:23:42] Speaker 12:
Thank you. you Thank you. .
[07:27:15] UNKNOWN:
. Thank you.
[07:28:15] Speaker 12:
you
[07:28:59] UNKNOWN:
you
[07:29:36] Speaker 09:
Final, final, anything from the commo? No, Your Honor. Final, final, anything from the defense? Have a good night, everyone.
[07:29:43] Speaker 26:
Thank you, Your Honor.